boy scout kayak

[4sons]

Hello group,

I am a frequent lurker on the board and have posted a few times in the past. I am in need of some geezer know-how. :wink:

I am scoutmaster of our local boy scout troop. We do a lot of fun stuff including a great deal of canoeing.

Recently I found a troop out in California (I think) that had the plans for building your own kayak. I thought this would be a great addition to our program for our older boys. The problem is I don't have any experience building boats and don't know if this is a good plan or not. I have some adults that are pretty good wood workers, but they have not ever built a boat either.

So if you don't mind give these plans a look and let me know what you think. Could a simple minded scoutmaster, a couple carpenters, and a whole flock of 13 - 18 year olds build some of these kayaks?

Thanks,

4sons
http://www.troop37.net/Activities/Our_A ... plans.html

 

[JEM]

Those are folding kayak plans. Black Dog Kayaks is a regular on this board. He'll be able to offer a good evalution.

Take a look here if you'd like some other plans to consider being built via stitch and glue.

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/FreeKayakPlans.php

 

[oldsparkey]

For the age range , the folding kayaks would be a challenge , but could/can be done. It all boils down the the persons ability and more so the desire to do it.

I would suggest to start out at a lower level , with the stitch and glue ones , this gives a person a boat to use and the understanding on how they are made.

Again , It all comes down to what the person wants , that is the key , if they don't want it then it is not worth the effort. All you will have is some nasty firewood.

As far as building a boat , If you have ever built anything from wood , a bird house , a bird feeder , model plane or anything ... you can build a boat. It is nothing more then wood , fiberglass and epoxy. Nothing hard to do , Just a lot of fun and more fun paddling it.

Chuck.

 

[4sons]

Thanks for the replies....

So Sparky do you suggest that the JEM kayak in the above post would be an easier build? Could you give me some pros\cons?

Thanks...

 

[Kayak Jack]

Another thing, 4Sons, the tool suggestions are weighted to power tools. No need for that. Plywood and framing can be cut with hand saws or a power jig saw. In fact, I'd be VERY leery about a group of kids around a table saw.

A router can be easily replaced with a hand plane. A belt sander can take off too much wood in a wink. A random orbital sander would be better. A hand drill is the original cordless drill. (Mine works nicely.)

These comments apply to building stitch and glue boats too.

 

[hairymick]

G'day 4 Sons,

I am building one of Matt's Laker Kayaks at the moment. I am an ex Scoutmaster and i believe the Laker would be very suitable for your needs.

Relatively easy to build with a minimum of tools and i think it will be a fine boat.

Here is my build. if you like, or are interested in boats like this, I can post much more detail on my build processes and help you where-ever I can. My methods are pretty close to those described in Matts build instructions (with a couple of short cuts) but the work for me and I am fairly sure they would work for your scouts.

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2007

 

[oldsparkey]

Thanks for the replies....

So Sparky do you suggest that the JEM kayak in the above post would be an easier build? Could you give me some pros\cons?

Thanks...

Yep... Simpler to build for younger folks and even us old goats , it gives or lets a person learn the basics in boat building along with a lot of support answering your or there questions about the build.

Both on here and on Jem Watercraft's forum with Matt and all of the rest of us which are on both of the forums , even nobucks and his frame , skin covered kayaks.

We work as one unit to help anyone starting to build a boat before going into the advanced stages of the more difficult , but simple , builds. You will understand that as time goes by....

Building wood boats is like walking , do the simple steps 1st then do the harder but simpler steps to get into running the marathons. That way everyone , wins.

A good foundation builds a better house or boat , then a person can get creative since they understand the basics and have it to paddle while working on the other ( Notice I did not say ... Better ) one.

None are as good as your 1st one. It is always the best , no matter what it looks like. I Made It .........

I'm not telling you which way to go , just offering some time learned experiences in this hobby and fun project. What you decide is totally up to you and your crew.

Either way ... we will be here to answer any questions along with Jem Watercraft's forum , sort of a double your pleasure item.

Chuck.

 

[nobucks]

It looks like most of the power tool usage is done by the adults before the class.

Top of Page 3 - "First, the plywood is cut into the body panels, the spreader boards are cut and shaped, and all of the remaining parts are cut
out. The body panels will be given to the boys a week or two before the group session."

The glue would be the most hazardous part of the project for the kids. It says that there is some misc. cutting of parts by the scout and parent.

It sounds like cost is the limiting factor. They talk about doing the whole boat for $115.00 as I understand from the plans, each Scout is to build his own kayak with the help of the parent? An S&G kayak would be pushing that figure after epoxy. I've heard some concerns from parents in similar scenarios regarding epoxy and their children. I wouldn't worry about it myself, but another parent might.

Forgive me if this turns into a commercial for our kayaks, as that's not my intention.

Our skin on frame kayaks at Black Dog Kayaks are well suited to such a class, but, even with our group discount, might be out of the price range if each one wants to do his own. All you need for ours is a drill, a screwdriver, a piece of sandpaper, and a stapler. However, after the group discount, our 12 foot kayak would still be $250. Or, you could order the frame kit, cut your own stringers, and that would be $200 after the group discount. Shipping would be cheaper as well. Doable, but it's still more than the $115 for the plans you linked to.

That said, I think our kayak or the JEM kayak would be more useable than the BSA kayak and you'd get more for your money than the cheaper alternative.

Another cheap alternative would be to go to The Woodshop and order their cheap plans for a 12 foot skin on frame and cut the stringers beforehand, then have the kids assemble the frame and skin it with canvas and paint it with latex.

To answer the question, though, yes, I think reasonable adults could follow the plans and build the kayak from the plan.

 

[bearridge]

Much az I hate ta butt in here, I got a question. Dont it matter what kinda water ya aim ta paddle? I mean, if yer gwine ta paddle skinny, slow movin' water, aint the pirogue a better fit? I reckon a kayak would be better in the gulf 'er paddlin' cross a big lake. Aint the pirogue the eaziest boat ta build.....next ta that raft Jim 'n Huck built?

Whew! That wuz harder'n the Sparkanator's bald head. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :roll: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

the serius
bearridge

It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth part.  Benjamin Franklin

 

[JEM]

I think one Joel's might be more straight forward to assemble than the one you listed. I've never put together one of his boats so I can't compare one of his to other methods. But they look pretty straight-forward and fun to use.

The epoxy to assemble a stitch and glue would require some supervision for use.

But if you use a quality resin, the hazards are minimal. I've heard of many scout troops getting discounts from System Three if you call them directly and are willing to submit a letter about the project on troop letter head. I'm sure other vendors would do the same if asked.

To build the Laker, you'll spend from $225 to $400 depending on how exotic you get with the materials. With Joel's, you get a great boat for around $200.

There's probably some free plans out there but I doubt you'd get the quality Joel offers.

 

[oldsparkey]

I'm just thinking of the 13 and on up age group , the older they are and the more they want a boat then the better it will be , in most cases but not all the time.

A skin on frame is something I associate with the older group of paddlers , the ones who respect there boats and cherish them , take care of them and make sure they are in like new condition all the time.

The all wood ones will take a lot more abuse and last long enough so who ever made it can step up a notch or two and have a boat of a different build.

In plain language , it is what is the best at the time for that builder, or what they want.

Chuck.

 

[nobucks]

Hey now, SOF's are plenty tough, :wink: but, you're right, we've been surprised that most of our kayaks that we've sold have been to the retirement set.

Currently, we're ironing out the cost for teaching a three day class down at a Chicago area kayak shop. Each of the students will take a Greenland Style Kayak home. That's a three day build, including skin. The Wood Shop kayak plans that I linked to are pretty close to our style of building and would give a good recreational kayak for cheap. Of course, with the BSA plans, there's also something to be said for a folding kayak for $115! Another free plan option is http://www.yostwerks.com although Tom's folding boats are a little more involved.

Matt, no problem here with my kids using epoxy under supervision, just mentioning one likely concern of parents. Gloves and long sleeve shirts would be the uniform of the day.

I built my Bateau cheap canoe/pirogue in the church basement for between $150 - $200, and you're right, Bear, it was a snap to put together. Since I sold that one at a garage sale, I need to build a JEM canoe one of these days to replace it.

Whatever you guys choose, I'm sure some of the kids will catch the boat building bug, which is good for everyone!

 

[4sons]

Thanks I really appreciate all the input. You have given me several web pages to research.

I'm glad ya'll talked about the skin on frame boats. I don't know much about them, but from what I have seen it is like the kevlor canoes I have used in Canada. I think the boys would be too rough on them. JEM I really like your design. I'm going to take you design to my carpenters to see what they think.

Thanks again....I knew I could count on good ol' fashion geezer know-how.

4sons

 

[JEM]

bearridge had a fine idea: A pirogue might be a good project to "cut your teeth on". Maybe have one of the group leaders build it so he can be the experienced one of the group.

 

[FlaMike]

I've probably got about the least experience of all who've posted in this thread, but I do have something to say on the subject.

To keep cost under control and to minimize exposure to what some see as potentially "hazardous" materials, I'm reminded of what Uncle John told me about his experience with basic Pirogue designs.

He said that a number of his boats gets built "on the cheap," using relatively inexpensive 1/4" exterior grade ply wood, with only the seams getting covered with fiberglass tape, and the boat painted inside & out with a good "porch paint," or an exterior latex house paint. And he says these boats, while probably not up to the standards of those pictured on this Forum, turn out well and last for years.

Now, my comments are not about the design of the boat, so much as they are about the building method. Most of use here like to turn out the best boat we can, but most could have been built for a lot less money, and still have been a good, solid functional boat.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

Thanks again....I knew I could count on good ol' fashion geezer know-how.

4sons

That statement has to be directed at Matt since all the rest of us are just young folks who always tell the truth ,only the truth and nothing but the truth (sometimes) .

Chuck

 

[nobucks]

Actually, this is also what ******* at ****** recommends too, for his "cheap canoe." I glassed the entire thing to get some experience before I started building my sailboat.

Two gallons of epoxy would go a long way doing it that way, maybe even enough for the entire troop.

Joel

I'm reminded of what Uncle John told me about his experience with basic Pirogue designs.

He said that a number of his boats gets built "on the cheap," using relatively inexpensive 1/4" exterior grade ply wood, with only the seams getting covered with fiberglass tape, and the boat painted inside & out with a good "porch paint," or an exterior latex house paint. And he says these boats, while probably not up to the standards of those pictured on this Forum, turn out well and last for years.

 

[JEM]

Joel just mentioned "he who shall not be named in this forum". :shock:




:lol:

 

[nobucks]

--

I know, I know, but his cheap canoe is ... cheap, and easy to build.

 

[oldsparkey]

Joel just mentioned "he who shall not be named in this forum". :shock:

:lol:

Yep , Matt I noticed that but decide to let it slide , a little cussing is permitted at times , even if it is such nasty words as he used. My guess is that old age is mellowing me out :twisted:

Anyway , everyone is entitled to one mistake.

You will NEVER see me using that name or referring to a certain other web site about paddling , those SOB's. Actually I should thank them and there twisted ideas about wood boats and the tree butchers who make the wood boats or we would never of been here as opposition to them and there warped way of thinking. They have to be one card short of a full deck , they like the Tupperware boats or they are not smart enough to build there own boat.

Life is funny and the 10 boats I have made sure destroyed all of the trees in the Amazon , according to them. Like they don't have any wood in there homes , Yep Right , enough to make 100 or more boats. :lol:

Before anyone asks , there web site rimes with piddler.net and that is as close to posting the real name as I will ever get. :twisted:

Chuck.