asymmetrical are swede form | Page 2 | SouthernPaddler.com

asymmetrical are swede form

silbs6521

New Member
Apr 6, 2011
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Actually, I find my Swede form boats (Cetus) narrower in the area of paddling. This allow for a vertical paddle Ihigh angle) and is ideal for using a Greenland stick and just sliding my hands over the deck as I rotate my torso. I use a shorter paddle (205) than with my fish form (RomanY) boat (210).
Silbs
 

silbs6521

New Member
Apr 6, 2011
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and...I do find that with the full sized Cetus, I need to be mindful of the width behind the cockpit when I set up to roll.
Silbs
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
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silbs6521 said:
Actually, I find my Swede form boats (Cetus) narrower in the area of paddling. This allow for a vertical paddle Ihigh angle) and is ideal for using a Greenland stick and just sliding my hands over the deck as I rotate my torso. I use a shorter paddle (205) than with my fish form (RomanY) boat (210).
Silbs

As usual, I'm confused. :? Are you sitting forward of center? I thought the swede form was wider behind center, or that is what I thought I was building.

beekeeper
 

woodchips

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Mar 29, 2010
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Montgomery, Alabama
I'm gonna try to not make this too technical. But I build my pirogues symmetrical so if I have to add in any fixed seating you can paddle in either direction, whether solo or tandem, without any change in performance.
 

ezwater

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
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I probably shouldn't wake a thread that has been sleeping quietly since last April, but I wanted to fill out the picture of why a swedeform hull is "faster."

Kayak Jack said, " A Swede form is more hydrodynamically clean in the front, but not as clean in the aft end. The more blunt rear end will tend to produce drag, partially or wholly making up for the advantages gained by a fine entry."

The drag on the back of the boat is actually less than one might anticipate, because the flow back there is turbulent. The flow of the water being parted by the bow is much smoother. Because the water flow around the stern is turbulent, there isn't the drag penalty for a shorter stern that would pertain if the water flowed coherently.

Everyone's correct that most people won't notice a speed advantage with a swedeform hull, but it is genuine. Marathon canoe racers would never do without that advantage, because it makes a real difference as the miles build up.

As has been mentioned, a narrower bow can make it easier for the bow paddler in a canoe to paddle closer to the axis. The stern paddler is penalised by extra width, though in marathon canoes and in (for example) the Wenonah Itasca, the stern gunwales can be pinched in to get them out of the way.

Some may have seen Mad River's new 18' 6" tripper, which has the most pronounced swedeform I have seen on a general purpose cruiser. But Mad River cancelled some of the speed by retaining the V bottom. :shock:
 

Kayak Jack

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Aug 26, 2003
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ezwater said:
<SNIP> The drag on the back of the boat is actually less than one might anticipate, because the flow back there is turbulent. The flow of the water being parted by the bow is much smoother. Because the water flow around the stern is turbulent, there isn't the drag penalty for a shorter stern that would pertain if the water flowed coherently.
Isn't more turbulence a sign of more drag?
 

beekeeper

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Mar 4, 2009
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I thought the definition of swede form was, a boat with more volume aft of center. Fish form would have more volume forward of center. I usually build for capacity and stability, so my boats hold their width more to the stern end (the bow is sharper pointed). The widest beam width is usually 4" to 8" in front of center. Wouldn't they be considered swede form, even though the widest beam width is forward of center?

beekeeper
 

tx river rat

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Feb 23, 2007
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Waco Tx
Bee I guess that would not be considered swede form,most folks seem to classify swede form as being wider in the back half than in the front half, asymmetrical to me is the widest point of the hull behind center.
mine are normally the widest where my butt is 16 to 18 inches behind center
Ron
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
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Waco Tx
Here is a good article that pretty well explains it


Symmetry: Sym, Fish, or Swede?

"Symmetry" describes the shape of the kayak from bow to stern, looking down from overhead. Imagine yourself looking straight down on the kayak, and pretend that the kayak has been cut in two equal halves: the front half (bow) and the rear half (stern). If the shape of the front half matches the shape of the rear half, the kayak is symmetrical. If the two halves differ in shape, the kayak is asymmetrical. Generally speaking, symmetrical kayaks are more maneuverable than their asymmetrical counterparts because, on a symmetrical kayak, the cockpit is very closely aligned with the true middle of the kayak (equally spaced from both ends). This means that you (and your paddle) are positioned as close to the true pivot point as possible, making it easier to turn and maneuver the kayak.

Asymmetrical kayaks are divided into two categories: Fish-form and Swede-form. These terms describe the location of the kayak's widest point in relation to its true middle. If the kayak is widest forward of true middle (closer to the bow), it is a Fish-form kayak. If the the kayak is widest to the rear of true middle (closer to the stern), it is a Swede-form kayak. Fish-form kayaks have roomier cockpits and greater directional stability, meaning that they tend to hold a straight course better. Swede-form kayaks will tend to ride drier, cruise at slightly faster speeds, and feel as though they have slightly better stability, but they will require more effort to turn. Having said that, applying a slight lean to "carve" a turn in a Swede-form kayak can compensate for its turning disadvantages. If a wave alters your course in a Fish-form kayak, you may actually find it harder to correct back to the correct course than you would if you applied some corrective lean in a Swede-form kayak. Of the two asymmetrial types, I consider Swede-form to be the more desirable performer.



Fish-Form Facts and Fictions

Interestingly, the appeal of Fish-form kayaks stems from the fact that a Fish-form shape generates less resistance in the water or in the air. This has led some designers to conclude (incorrectly) that a Fish-form kayak will paddle faster and more efficiently than other shapes. But since a kayak actually occupies the space between two elements (the air and the water), the advantages of the Fish-form shape are lost to the unique surface effects of wave action and drag. For a submarine (fully under the water) or an airplane (fully in the air), the Fish-form shape offers real hydrodynamic and aerodynamic advantages, but for a kayak traveling on the surface of the water, a symmetrical or Swede-form design offers superior advantages. This is not to say that you can't be happy with a Fish-form kayak, or that every Fish-form kayak will paddle less enjoyably than its symmetrical or Swede-form counterparts. In the end, the real deciding factor is your own personal preference and subjective experience. Try before you buy, and buy the kayak that feels best to you.

Hull Shape and Performance

Hull shape has some bearing on stability as well. A kayak with a deep V-shaped hull will generally feel very tippy in terms of its initial stability, but will actually seem to get more stable as it begins to lean. A kayak with a rounded, U-shaped hull (called "rounded chines") will generally possess a mixture of good initial and good secondary stability, but it will take some practice to get a good feel for how far the kayak can be leaned before it capsizes. A Greenland-style hull, which consists of a series of flat surfaces joined by hard, distinct angles (called "hard chines"), can offer superb initial stability and surprisingly comfortable secondary stability. As you lean to one side, the flat surfaces are laid into the water and feel as though they are "locking in" to become more stable at specific angles of lean.



Opinions vary widely, but there is probably no "single best design" for a hull shape. Every hull shape has its specific advantages. In extremely general terms, V-shaped hulls tend to slice waves more efficiently, resulting in a slightly higher crusing speed and better tracking in choppy conditions; they also tend to have superb secondary stability, even though they will feel the most tippy initially. U-shaped hulls offer smoother transition from initial to secondary stability, turn relatively easily, and are more forgiving when waves or surf break against the sides (a hard-chined boat gives a beam-breaking wave a flatter surface to strike, thereby generating a bit more "tipping" force compared to rounded chines, which allow the wave to slip under more smoothly). Hard-chined, "Greenland" hulls track slightly better and offer a clearer, more stable feel for leaning and carving tighter turns, but their hard edges generate slightly more friction, theoretically resulting in a slightly slower cruising speed than kayaks with rounded chines. In each of these cases, we're talking extremely small, if not negligible differences. The issues of initial stability versus secondary stability, and tracking versus maneuverability, are what really set these hull designs apart. As with most things, these factors always involve some sort of trade-off. Decide what's best for you and stick with it. Whatever you choose, I'm confident you will end up with a wonderful kayak. Stressing too much over the hull-shape decision will ultimately do you little good. It's an issue you will develop your own preferences about over time.

Rocker and Waterline: Turning vs. Tracking

Two other terms you should be acquainted with are "rocker" and "waterline." "Rocker" refers to the curve of the hull from front to rear. In other words, as you look at the profile (side view) of the kayak, is the hull curved from bow to stern like a banana (lots of rocker), or is it fairly flat and straight (little or no rocker)? The more rocker a kayak possesses, the easier it will be to turn, but the harder it will be to keep going in a straight line. In other words, as rocker increases, turning-ability increases, but tracking decreases. Since good tracking is so crucial to a kayak's performance, most kayaks on the market (with the exception of white-water kayaks) have very little rocker built into them. Even in a kayak with no rocker, the benefits of rocker can still be exploited by simply leaning the kayak to one side as you turn. This places the curvature of the sides into the water and creates the effect of rocker to assist in turning the kayak (called "carving" a turn). For this reason, little to no rocker is desirable in most cases. The dramatic improvement in tracking is well-worth the minimal extra effort required to turn an unrockered kayak, and the benefits of rocker will become available to you (even in an "unrockered" kayak) when you learn to "carve" turns properly. Regardless, it's rare to find a kayak with much rocker in the first place, so this is a minor issue. Just be aware of it as you shop around, and avoid any oddball kayaks that look as curvy as a banana.

"Waterline" refers to the length of the hull at the waterline (where the hull touches the water). The longer the waterline, the better a kayak will track and (theoretically, at least) the faster it will cruise. Since waterline can be radically affected by design, I need to qualify the earlier rule that longer kayaks track better. Consider this: A kayak that is 16'5" long may only have a waterline of 14 feet. Why? Because kayaks usually taper and flare dramatically at the ends. Consequently, although the kayak may indeed measure 16'5" long from tip to tip on deck, the taper of the nose and tail may reduce the hull to a noticeably shorter distance (say, 14 feet) where it actually touches the water. Why is this important? Because when comparing two different kayaks to decide which one will track better and cruise more efficiently (assuming you don't have an opportunity to actually test each one out), it is not necessarily true that the longer kayak will track better (at least not if their lengths are within a foot or so of each other). What you need to compare is the waterline of each kayak. Depending on how it is designed, a 16'5" kayak could have a waterline of approximately 14 to 16 feet, and a 15'5" kayak could have a waterline of approximately 13 to 15 feet. It is possible, then, that the longer kayak could actually have a shorter waterline. Of course, in most cases, the difference will be negligible if the lengths do not differ by at least a foot or more. As I said earlier, it takes about one full foot (possibly two feet) of added length to make a noticeable difference in a kayak's tracking ability.
This article pretty well sums up why my fastest boat THE UGLY DUCK had the dimensions it has ,16 ft long with a 15ft 11 inch water line ,very little rocker ,v bottom , asymmetrical swede
form 20 inches at the widest point on the bottom, 22 inches at the four inch water line.It is fast stable and tracks like it is tied to a track
I have yet to have a 16 ft boat that can come close to her and that is with a 65 year old motor . So it works
Ron
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,917
59
Ron
I understand your boat is swede by the definition that the widest part is aft of center. Here is a link to another explination of kayak shapes.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/smhydro/hydro.htm

LCB is the distance from the start of the waterline to the center of the volume the kayak displaces. The center of the displaced volume is called a 'centroid' but LCB is just the x direction component of its coordinates. The others are VCB - vertical center of buoyancy and TCB - transverse center of buoyancy.
The center of buoyancy as an imaginary focus of all vertical forces that keep the kayak afloat. Its counterpart, the LCG, is the focus of all loads that push the kayak down. Under normal conditions and In the absence of other forces LCB and LCG are in balance or equilibrium.

The %LCB is the longitudinal location of the LCB with respect to the waterline. %LCB is what often distinguishes whether a kayak is 'Fish' or 'Swede' form. Fish form kayaks have LCB less than 50% of LWL while Swede hull forms are more than 50%. Swede hullforms displace water more efficiently, reducing the effect of wave resistance and are therefore faster, especially at higher cruising and racing speeds. Smaller pitching motion in waves, good handling in following seas (waves coming from the back) and drier ride are few other benefits of Swede hull forms.
All One Ocean Kayak designs are Swede hull forms.

LCB in sea kayaks ranges from 49% for 'Fish forms' up to 55% for 'Swede forms'. Designs beyond these limits result in poor directional stability as in the Swede forms or lack of maneuverability as in the Fish forms.

This reference to volume is not the only place I have seen this explination. I guess the definition given depends on which "expert" is giving it.

beekeeper

HAPPY THANKSGIVING Everybody! :D
 

ezwater

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
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0
What beekeeper provides is related to my line of argument, though different in emphasis.

Another way of trying to look at it. You choose a length and width of hull. As your boat passes through the water, how should the bow and stern be shaped to push the water aside and allow it to return with the least drag? In marathon canoes, rather than there being a proud bow and stern, the bow widens at a fairly constant rate until the widest part of the hull, and then the stern narrows at a relatively constant rate also. Thus water is pushed out of the way by the bow in an orderly way, without bluff acceleration. And if the water behaves, it should close around the stern in an orderly fashion. Quite different from how a Grumman treats the water.

Now, the next question would be, should the taper zones of the bow and stern be of the same length and width, or might there be reasons to make the hull asymmetrical? At this point, beekeeper points out that making the bow longer than the stern helps the hull deal with the bow wave. That is, because the hull is moving through the water, fast enough (if paddlers are working efficiently) to push the bow wave, then by lengthening the bow we can soften that interaction. The stern? I don't know, but there isn't any big interfering wave back there.

Ignorant or not, I'm phrasing it a little differently. The water parted by the bow behaves in a fairly orderly way. Lenthening the bow reduces the difficulty of accelerating that water out of the way. But behind the boat, the water flow breaks up somewhat with turbulence. Because of this, there is little or no payoff in lengthening the stern. Although shortening the stern a little may increase drag a bit, it doesn't cost us enough to offset the speed added by lengthening the bow. So, we choose to lengthen the bow.
 

Kayak Jack

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Aug 26, 2003
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Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Putting the water back together again as it leaves the stern is partly a function of how fine (sharp) that stern stem is. A blunt one, like say a transom for an outboard motor, will leave a heck of a stream of turbulence (read drag) behind it. As it gets narrower and sharper, that turbulence and accompanying drag are diminished. It becomes more hydrodynamically clean and streamlined. Displacement hulls that don't climb up on top and plane, are likely more subject to this than are planing hulls.

It's pretty similar to how streamlined an aircraft is, and how turbulence and drag affect it in flight. Both cases are a body moving through a fluid (whether that fluid is a gas or a liquid.)

But, I suspect that for fishing the weather is more noticeable to the paddler than is an ounce or two of drag. And, for a camper, rocks, logs, mosquitoes, and such are also likely to be more noticeable than a bit of drag.
 

tx river rat

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Feb 23, 2007
3,043
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Waco Tx
With the hull of a well built kayak you dont put a bow wave up not with a displacement hull you start trying to climb up that wave at 12 or 13 miles an hour and I dont think anyone here has ever seen much over half that
With a displacement hull the bow is pushing water apart splitting it, the stern doesnt have the same thing happening, the water is pushing in with very little resistance,two completely different actions . a fine entry and a smooth long angle of the hull to its maximum width is the most efficient up to what the motor you can put out. The stern isnt pushing the water it is letting it come back together with the smallest amount of turbulence for a efficient hull. for the best performance you need as smooth a transitions as you can get. This is the reason a long waterline out preforms a shorter one. I used the broadheads as a example and they dont have to be moving fast, shoved in by hand they will react the same and it is well known that a long angle gets much easier penetration than a short angle just like a boat in water. I think this is one of those conversations that will never be settled even the pros dont agree on all of it
I am realizing these kind of conversations go nowhere ,because they take one aspect of a boat and just concentrate on it.
My fastest boat THE UGLY DUCK had the dimensions it has ,16 ft long with a 15ft 11 inch water line ,very little rocker ,v bottom , asymmetrical swede
form 20 inches at the widest point on the bottom, 22 inches at the four inch water line.It is fast stable and tracks like it is tied to a track
This boat was a combination of a lot of things with some compromises thrown in to build a extremely fast efficient boat. Not one thing but a bunch blended together.
Ron
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
I know nothing about this stuff, but I have my pet thoughts on it. A small flat, concave or whatever on the rear of a boat should make the boat move better :mrgreen: Only given is that it must continue to below the water line.
Ok, perfectly flat calm water. Boat with a flat behind. Push the boat forward. That's gonna raise the height of the water alongside. At the back of the boat there's gonna be a slight depression in the water where the back of the boat previously was. That depression has to fill in, just because water always take the opportunity to level itself. Doesn't matter where the water comes from to fill it in, but it is gonna flow towards the flat back, or around from the sides. I think it would, ever so slightly have a pushing effect on the boat. I'm probably wrong on some academic level but that don't matter. No one can ever prove that to me because I would not begin to understand the theory. Therefore I cannot be proven wrong.
You can seal this topic now if you like :lol:
 

Kayak Jack

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Aug 26, 2003
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Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
G'day, John. We're eating turkey here Stateside, so the triptan dulls our senses a bit. But, not all that much.
Hoping that the water behind a square stern will fill in fast enough to push the boat forward is similar to hoping that a generator fastened to the front wheels of a car will power a motor fastened to the rear wheels of the car. Or, sitting in a sail boat and blowing on the sail to make it go forward.
The technical, scientific, engineering explanation is: Nice to dream about, but ain't gonna happen. All hopes for perpetual motion died when Ginger Rogers quit dancing, and the world just hasn't been the same ever since.
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
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Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Another trick that doesn't work is to tie a bucket to the front of the boat, and hope that the current will carry you along faster than the current is flowing.

TANSTAFL (Pronounced TAN-staff-ell) There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch