Keel runner on Pirogue? | Page 2 | SouthernPaddler.com

Keel runner on Pirogue?

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
86
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Mike,

This subject hasn't come up yet. I'll offer a suggestions and let others refine it.

If your piece of 1.5" X 0.5" wood isn't long enough and has to be spliced. take care. You might want to cut the splice ends on a 45 degree slant, and put them together so the sharp edge of the forward piece is aiming back, and the sharp edge of the aft piece is tucked up in. That might help to keep from snagging it on debris.

(I told you that not everybody would agree with me. They, of course, are all wrong.) :lol:
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
I'm probably kidding myself about being able to find a single piece at Home Depot, long enough. I seem to recall reading somewhere that such long pieces are available in the molding & trim section, and seeing some pretty long sticks in there. But that long? Maybe not.

If not, then I will do a 10 or 12 to 1 scarf, no problem with wood that size. I wouldn't expect the ends to separate, especially after the epoxy and FG tape covering, but instinct would probably have me align the joint as you said, just on "general principles," and the fact that it would just "feel right" doing it that way.

But if they do have a piece "tailor made" that is long enough, I'll ceratinly use it! :D

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
G'day Mike,

All I used was a piece of "finger jointed" pine from a hardware chain that I think might be similar to your Lowes.. :D

Aussie terminology might be a little different here, but all fingerjoint is, is short pieces moulded to little matching "Vs" the ends and glued together to make a long stick.

It is fairly common practice out here to use inferior timber like this for the carcasses of cabinets etc. If it is available there, it is plenty strong enough for a running strip, especially once epoxied to the bottom of your boat. :D

I didn't worry about covering mine with fibreglass. One coat of clear epoxy, then ran a fillet down eich side just to help seal it and give a nice rounded joint between the strip and boat bottom, and then just cover the whole lot with graphite. - easy :D i like things easy :lol:
 

bearridge

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2005
3,092
4
way down yonder
oldyaker said:
You have just insulted every person on the Pirouge Building Section and the fine fella's sending in those great pictures of them enjoying those boats they worked so hard at building! :wink:
Ya mean the bottoms are FLAT? Sheeeezam......

Ya'll best git Matt ta work on a round bottom pirogue....pronto. Hmmm.....that sounds like a fine name fer a boat. Didnt Pancho ride a horse named "Pronto"?

regards
bearridge

For NASA, space is still a high priority. Vice President Dan Quayle
 

TradGlenn

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2007
51
0
Central Florida
FlaMike if I was going to put a keel on my boat I would by a 16' pressure treated 2x4 and rip it down to the size I needed. Alot cheaper than buying 16' molding and you get the benefit of the wood being treated.
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
86
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Question - are you supposed to wear a face mask when working with the new treated wood? I think I'd been told that with the old sruff with arsenic, you were supposed to wear a breathing mask. Want to know about the new stuff.



(For Christmas last year, I sent Chuckie a pinata filled with that kind of sawdust. You guys notice how demented he's been lately? Looks like he finally played with it.)
 

TradGlenn

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2007
51
0
Central Florida
tx river rat said:
Will the treated lumber being oily hold epoxy
Ron

I think they treat it different down after the arsenic scare came out a few years ago. Not sure about the oils in the wood and using epoxy.

I only used the treated wood on my rub rails and did not use any epoxy on them, just varnish.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
There's a reason I keep referring to the strip of wood I'll be attaching down the center-line of the boat on the bottom as a "keel runner," instead of simply, a keel.

The purpose of this small piece of wood is simply to add a little directional stability. I'm not intending it to add strength to the bottom, nor to act as a counter-balance to a standing mast.

When most people hear the word "keel," it conjures up an image in the mind of a lead ballasted keel on the bottom of a sailboat. The little strip of wood I'm adding couldn't be further from this!

I have quite a bit of FG tape and was thinking about laying it on top of the strip, but Mick has a point in just epoxy-saturating it, making it much more easily replaceable. But I was thinking that with the FG tape covering it, the piece might be protected enough so it wouldn't require replacement.

On a larger, heavier boat, these lengthwise strips are often meant to be protective and need to be made replaceable. But given the size and weight of the Pirogue, I tend to think that anytime I ground the boat hard enough to damage that strip, the bottom will likely suffer the same damage.

And since the bottom will be "protected" by the layer of 6 oz cloth, epoxy, and the graphite layers, I might as well give the same protection to that keel runner as well.

I've confirmed my obligation to the FL3-DMAT, it's only a couple of hours out of the middle of the day on Thursday. So, I'll still pick up the stuff I need on the way home Monday morning. Then see if I can spend some time on the water up at Pine Island that day, and then off to Ozello on Tuesday. Get the runner installed Wednesday morning and then the graphite bottom done and sides painted that evening, leaving the insides and rub rail to be varnished on Thursday, and the bottom inside painted with a non-skid paint.

Then I have three more days "on the job," after which I can come home to a Pirogue that is now complete!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
The last three nights at the hospital were the busiest we've seen in quite a while! Normally, we have a certain amount of "down-time," no problem taking time to fix up a little dinner and sometimes, enough time to actually sit down and enjoy it.

Not last night!

Got home with a "zero energy level." But I did stop and pick up a new pad for the R/O sander and some finer sanding disk. I've decided against taking the boat out for a couple of more trips, I'm going to use the entire 4 days to do all the finish work, instead.

I could not find a 1 1/2 X 1/2" or even thicker piece, so I settled for a 3/4 X 1/2" one, and it is a full 16 feet long. (Tied it to the passenger side of the pick-up truck.) Tired as I was, it didn't occur to me to get a much larger piece and simply rip it down to size.

But I'm thinking that oldsparkey was right about the width of this runner not being particularly important for what I want it to do, and confident that Mick is right about the 1/2" depth being enough to provide the lateral resistance needed, without presenting too much extra depth for hanging up on stuff. And I'll certainly remember to remove the sharp edges, as suggested.

And, after looking at the piece, I think Mick's also right about not bothering with the FG tape, just saturating the daylights out of it with epoxy, as the wood seem quite light and will soak up a lot of it. The runner will go on first, then the graphite coating to the entire bottom, next.

Should it need replacement one day, it will be easier without that cloth, or if I eventually decide it needs to be bigger, or removed completely, I'll be able to do it without a major struggle.

As for the finish, the Home Depot did not have what I'd call "real spar varnish." Again, I may have been too tired to think properly, so I opted not to make a later trip to a marine supply, and brought home a can of what Minwax calls their "best" clear finish, polyurethane, with their highest level of UV protection. They say it's good for outdoor furniture, windows, etc., and I hoping it was the best choice from some poor options. We'll see.

I am convinced that a combination of paint and clear finish is the way to go with this particular boat. The wood it's made with was chosen for another project some time ago, one that was to have been mostly all fiberglassed and painted, with a minimum of brightwork. It looks good from a distance, but the closer you get, the more you see. . .

A smaller amount of clear-finish wood looks very good when seen against a painted surface. Kind of like chrome on a car, too much can look as bad as too little.

So, the bottom will get the graphite finish (the sanded version,) with a stripe of it brought up to the rail, fore & aft, like TradGlenn did with his Pirogue. The sides will be a dark green on the outside, against the clear finish rub rail.

Inside, I will be leaving the sides clear, as well as the ribs and in-whale. But the inside bottom will get painted a "deck gray" with a little non-skid read: fine-grain sand,) mixed in. One redfish in the boat leaving some of it's slime coat on the bottom, on a varnished surface, combined with one fool standing up to fish or poll the boat, equals one swimmer in the water!

The little bit of decking fore & aft will remain clear, as well. And I have a special little bit of work to do on the foredeck that will really "make the boat." (A little mystery, here!)

It all starts this evening. :D

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

seedtick

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2006
1,161
7
Denham Springs, LA
just my opinion but,

return the can of Minwax varnish, I've never had a poyurethane do well in an outside environment.

Remember it's your varnish that's protecting all that epoxy underneath. Epoxy has virtually no UV protection. It's easier to build another boat than sand away epoxy.

Find some real marine spar varnish. I like Epiphanes but it's pricey.
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
10,479
123
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
Yep... A full moon and all the weirdos are out or going to the hospital or jail. Those that miss both are out purchasing Minwax to use on something they don't care about.

If you do have the nerve to actually put it on your boat then you might as well save your Penney's and dimes so you can go and get a sand blaster or a lot ( truck load) of sand paper because later you will be removing every brush stroke of that vile and evil stuff when it starts peeling and flaking.

I will do anything to make Kayak Jacks life miserable ( even threaten him with grits) but one thing that I would never do , in three lifetimes , is to tell him to use minwax on anything but a boat that someone built and he wants to get even with or make there life miserable.

Follow seedticks suggestion or use what I have faith in , Captains Z-Spar Varnish , Yep it does cost more but it provides what you want and it lasts.

There is an old saying ... You get what you pay for ... with varnish that is really true and min wack ( no matter what the hype is on there sales pitch ) is nothing more then JUNK..

Just my personal idea and no ones else , might be yours later if you use it. :twisted: :twisted:

Chuck.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
OK, guys! Thanks on the "head's-up' about the Minwax. I'll return it soonest, and there is a "discount marine" store not too far off that has good prices on marine paints and "for real" spar varnishes. I won't be needing it today, anyway. Plenty of time to get it, tomorrow. :D

I'll go for the "good stuff."

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
86
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Mike, grip that can of MinWax tightly, RUN - don't walk - to where you got it. Return it for your purchase price. Failing that, leave it on their doorstep. either way, you will be money ahead.

Go to http://shrinkster.com/rcv and buy Z-Spar 1015 Captain Varnish. Go home, sit down, and pat yourself on the back. Use this varnish; avoid Minwax like the plague.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Yikes! :shock:

The first two post on my ill-considered purchase of the Minwax product already scared me into taking it back, tomorrow.

Looks to me like there is a consensus on this subject, at least. :lol:

Z-Spar I am familiar with. That local discount marine store is a pretty good one, lower prices than the shops located at or near the marinas. I'm sure they'll have it and at least another brand or two to choose from. I plan on getting the Z-Spar however, having used it in the past .

'Preciate everyone looking out for me though. :wink:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL