Sasquatch 14x30 ... Done , a 30 pound Ugley Canoe.

[oldsparkey]

Same thing Mick , I'm just a lot blunter then you are and the rest about saying things.
We have to remember that there are a lot of the folks out there in this web land who want a good boat , they can build , for there use and are on a budget.

After all that was the main idea of this web site , to help someone have one without breaking there bank. Now what they do later , we have no responsibility for that. :lol:

Fortunately I am in the position to do a build either way and then explain it and I regret for going so long and not building one so I could speak with some authority about it and not just from memories , times and cost do change and normally not for the better.
Plus I even learned some things that I have forgotten since the last time I built a boat , even a few new tricks. :lol:

If a person has a choice .. The kit is the best way to go , especially for a 1st build and the money spent is well worth it. All the hard work has been done for you , all you do is put it together following the instructions. After then a person can get a little nut's on modifications and the rest since they have a working knowledge about building a wood boat.

I do have to say that building one from the plans is a lot of fun , you have to round up everything , cut it out and go from there which makes a good learning curve , especially if you make a mistake .... something I like to do. Guess that is why I still have some spare 4 x8 sheets of wood in the shop. :roll:

Chuck.

 

[tx river rat]

Chuck
I guess I should not have ask that question.
I will put in my two cents on expensive wood and cheap wood :lol:
I think you should use what you can afford and feel comfortable using.
There is no doubt using the kit is the easiest way to build a boat and the okem and precise cuts would be great.
Now my deal is a little different I get to having visions and get to seeing a design in my head how the boat will look and what will preform for me the best . That is 90% of the fun for me. I guess the only boat that has been to the plans was my Freedom 15 , well all except for the decks.
And you know I am not afraid to put a saw to a hull :twisted:
Laun 4 mm is the wood that works best for me
Thats my story sticking to it.
Ron

 

[islandpiper]

Chuck, great looking boat. Hats off to you and Matt. As an old-time canoe guide I am only concerned that she seems to sit so high.....maybe that is due to the 30 pound empty weight. I'll be interested to hear/see how she floats with a load aboard. A paddler and two weeks of supplies might help to develop some stability and decrease the windage. Lacking the supplies, I wonder if you will end up carrying an empty five-gallon bucket and lid to fill over the side and pack up forward some place just for weight and balance.

We want to see pics of this boat in use, loaded and going down the river some place. Maybe a couple of well-behaved Univ. Florida Co-eds would add enough ballast to bring it down to the designed water line.

Piper

 

[JEM]

Chuck, great looking boat. Hats off to you and Matt. As an old-time canoe guide I am only concerned that she seems to sit so high.....maybe that is due to the 30 pound empty weight.

I think you're right on that , Pipe.

If my calcs are correct, she should draft 3-5" depending on if Chuck is out for a day trip or if he's loaded with about 100 pounds (45k) of gear.

 

[bearridge]

I'll be interested to hear/see how she floats with a load aboard.

Dont worry. She iz bout ta face that test. The High Sheriff iz a load....'n a half. :mrgreen: [Thanks fer that high lob piper.]

regards
bearridge

Even in his last years, Granddad had a mind like a steel trap, only one that had been left out so long, it had rusted shut. Unknown high school student

 

[JEM]

I've debated this issue in my head many times.

I will mildly disagree with Chuck in his stance that the wood isn't an important factor. It is the core in a composite sandwich but it significantly contributes the stiffness and strength of the hull.

Fortunately, these aren't power boats we're dealing with so if the wood isn't the best and maybe cracks or splits, you'll likely only end up getting wet and not crash at 40 miles per hour 2 miles out at sea.

What I find most worrisome about the less expensive plywood is the thickness of the plies. Some of it isn't much much than a sheet of colored paper laminated on some cheap particle board. No strength in that.

Voids are highly objectionable as well but the worst void I've found has only been about 5" in diameter. That's in no way a good thing but you'd be guaranteed to find while cutting the panels.


This debate ending to a definite conclusion is likely never to happen.

 

[jdupre']

I'm kind of the odd man out on this forum. I used neither epoxy and fiberglass nor polyester resin and fiberglass. Just plain old marine plywood, nails and glue. Made a darn good craft that should last for as long as any fiberglass boat. People on this forum suggested I use epoxy/fiberglass, but I wanted to build the pirogue MY way. It's not any better or any worse than any boat shown on this forum- just different.

A Purdy double shotgun is considered one of the best shotguns in the world. Is it 10 times better than a lowly Mossberg. Probably not. But a guy that has limited funds can get a Mossberg, shells, hunting clothes, decoys, licenses, and still have money for a little trip to the coast for some good duck hunting for a LOT less than the Purdy.

My whole fishing/touring pirogue outfit- pirogue, anchors, PFD, paddle, a complete 5wt fly fishing outfit, a complete 3wt fly fishing outfit, enough fly tying material to tie over a hundred flies and a dandy low end digital camera-- total cost-- a little over $600.00. Less than Chuck has in his boat. Dang good bang for the buck.

If you can afford( or justify) spending over 5 times as much for wood for your boat, that's fantastic. But, with a little forethought, you can have a boat that will be just as strong, last just as long , and look just as good with wood that costs $10.00 a sheet.

Nobody's right in this discussion-- just people having different opinions.

 

[Bilgerat]

Nobody's right in this discussion-- just people having different opinions.

Yup! And that's what makes sites like this great. We can all learn from each other.

Mike

 

[tx river rat]

DAM I CAN STIR THEM UP
:twisted: :twisted: :lol:

 

[oldsparkey]

Nobody's right in this discussion-- just people having different opinions.

Yup! And that's what makes sites like this great. We can all learn from each other.

Mike

How right you are ..No one has the correct answer , what I like , you might not but we get to express our ideas on here so a person has a choice in what they want to do.
As someone once said ... " Opinions are like noses , everyone has one." I know the original expression used an area lower on the body's anatomy. :lol:

How boring it would be if all of us agreed on everything , heck that would not be any fun and no one could stir the pot to make it interesting.

Chuck........Eat Mo Grits. :lol:

 

[tx river rat]

Boy I love this forum
We got expensive wood inexpensive wood inferior wood superiour wood ,wood peanut butter,and now lets get to the boats we got boats built out of all of the above ,and polyester boats :lol: epoxy boats oh and lets not forget the vinalester boats with just paint and glue, dugouts from a log kayaks from see thru plastic, kayaks made from blue tarps , hide boats ,bark boats ,whale and sealskin boats wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Now folks can't you see Jack and Chuck squared off about making a dug out. boy can hear it now. Jack , Dang Chuck that tree aint pretty enough to be a dugout Chuck, Oh we just put a little peanut butter in them knot holes it be ok. LMAO
Bottom line if it floats and makes you happy go for it.
Ron
Hows that song go I like my women just a little on the trashy side, maybe I like my boats that way
and if I want Sondra to hear about that comment I will tell her :x

 

[bearridge]

Which thread iz this....the one where the High Sheriff built the new boat....with hiz feet? I got lost 'n I dont have a satellite signal caller (a Mr. Pibb) on me. Did this one git hijacked down the same path az the others?

Who made the peanut butter 'n jelly boat 'n how much did it weigh? :wink:

I think mine iz made outta styrofoam, with plastic on both sides.....jest like Wonder Bread. :?

 

[keith]

chuck, i think your boat looks real good, i think you did a good job. i enjoy reading your build, your build now and in the past. i dont build stich and glue or fiberglass and i would never put anyone down for building one or ten of them. life is to short to be pissen and bitchen. we all have to start somewhere, i say build it any way you can or want and try to have fun. like j.dupuy said, do it your way. and yes, my wood boat weights more then a plastic fiberglass one, but i dont have to buy fiberglass and plastic so mine probable cost less, but who counts. me and tick are in it for the fun. love you all, have a nice day, keith

 

[islandpiper]

Chuck, since you have brought it up several times over the years, AND have just completed a new boat AND have made the point that we have glass-sandwich boats with a wood filling........let me dig up this OLD ISSUE.

In the past you have said that the epoxy SOAKS IN to the plywood. do you have any technical data describing this? How far ln does epoxy soak? Does it really soak in at all?

I'm about to run some tests. Perhaps paint on a few coats and then carefully plane away the surface at a broad angle and microscopically examine the wood fibers, whatever it takes.

I am of a belief that epoxy doesn't soak in very far.

thanks in advance for your patient understanding and carefully crafted answer.

piper

 

[oldsparkey]

piper...

Nothing scientific on this end , just simple old stuff like putting some epoxy on a piece of wood and sawing it to fit a part of the boat. Taking a look at it it sure looks like it soaked in a ways like all the folks said that I have read about doing it.
I might be seeing wrong but the epoxied piece sure has a different interior color then the non epoxied one and it is the same chunk of wood.

Then using plain old logic , liquid does soak into bare wood ... Right. So it makes sense that some epoxy with or without acetone in it soaks into the wood , how far .... need a lab rat to find out for sure. My guess is the runnier it is the more of it soaks in like the acetone diluted mix.

:lol: :lol: :lol: it has to soak in to some degree or the epoxy would just fell off the boat when dried. :roll:

It would be interesting to try some experiments. Two control (Test) batches.
1. One with plain epoxy on it.
2. One with diluted epoxy , acetone and epoxy.
3. One with two diluted coats of epoxy.
4. So on and on to see which soaks in the best and how far.
With the control ( Test) pieces # 1 being done on one side and the control batch #2 on both sides.

My bet is that 2 or 3 diluted coats soak in the furthest with the plain epoxy being the lease amount of saturation. ( They say anymore then 4 diluted coats are a wast of time.) Then take thin slices of each test piece and check them under a microscope to get an accurate picture. Some dye ( not wood colored) mixed in the epoxy might help to see the distance it soaks in.

Chuck.
PS. Piper .. the way you phrased your questions , I'm thinking of changing your handle to Jack Jr. :lol:

 

[hairymick]

Ok,

Here is the results of my feeble, non scientific tests.

I find the the epoxy will penetrate MY ply to the glue line only. It has never managed to get past the glue line and into the inner cores or veneers regardless of what ply I am using.

But it does saturate the outside veneers of the ply and this has made the ply stronger - much stronger.

My purpose in pre-coating the ply with resing before fibreglassing is partially to increase the strenght of the ply but mainly because it makes wetting out the glass easier.

I have built a few boats now using the best marine ply I could get and a few using some stuff that is probably very similar to what Chuck uses. All from plans.

My experience is that the better quality of the ply makes for an easier build. I would expect the better ply to go some way in making for a better boat but having said that, all the boats I have made using the cheap stuff have held up fine with no sign of failure yet. This includes my Laker which I built ot of the very worst sheets of 3mm luann I had. Stuff I had rejected from other builds.

I built Robins Laker using the best sheets from a bunch very good gaboon/Okoume. Her boat is prettier, lighter and I would expect, stronger than mine but this in no way means that my laker is sub-standard. All it means is that Robin's boat is better than mine.

Some of us will only ever build on boat. others will build many. For me the joy of building my own is in the build itself and sharing same with others in the hope that somebody else might gain some knowledge from the mistakes I continue to make. For my purposes, The cheap ply is good enough, the better ply is of course - better but not at all necessary in my humble opinion.

We all come from very different backgrounds with differing levels of financial committments etc. If a bloke chooses to good ply - good on him. If he chooses something cheaper - good on him too. It really doesn't matter that much.

Chuck, inspite of your protestations to the contrary, you are a master craftsman and boat builder - extra-ordinaire. Your latest magnificent build is strong testimony to that. Not all of us have these sorts of skills and abilities. You can build a superb craft using the cheapest and most difficult to work ply and could have built your Sasquatch to the same standard as you have with it. Not everybody can do this mate.

 

[hairymick]

Jack,

If I understand you correctly, that is exactly my point.

The thinner the ply used, the greater the percentage of strength increase is.

Typically, our boats only use ply with 3 veneers glued together, or as in the case of the cheaper stuff, a veneer on each side and some sort of filler in between them. These thin plys would gain the greatest percentage stength increase compared to thicker plys with more veneers.

For my purposes, I think the outer veneers are well worth saturating with epoxy before attempting to sheath them in fibreglass.

If what we call Gaboon is the same as what you guys call Okoume (and I think it is), the timber veneers are very soft,and are easly bruised and marked in its untreated/epoxied state. When the veneers are coated/saturated in epoxy, they not only become more bruise/mark and scratch resistant, the resin actually bonds the timber fibers together which increased the strength of the ply. Add to that, a layer of fibreglass and epoxy either side, and what was once a very weak piece of timber becomes very strong. I like that. Sort of like a sandwich inside a sandwich.

I don't know the technical or scientific stuff but have tested ply to destruction and the difference is remarkable.

 

[Wannabe]

Tension and compression is carried by the outside surfaces. Saturate the out side ply and you have stronger plywood. Putting glass on the outside of that transfers the tension and compression from the outside ply to the glass which negates the strength of the saturated ply and just makes for a better bond between the wood and glass. Is my thinking correct on this?
A feeble mind wants to know.
Bob

 

[JEM]

Tension and compression is carried by the outside surfaces. Saturate the out side ply and you have stronger plywood. Putting glass on the outside of that transfers the tension and compression from the outside ply to the glass which negates the strength of the saturated ply and just makes for a better bond between the wood and glass. Is my thinking correct on this?
A feeble mind wants to know.
Bob

This is exactly how I see it. I typically skip putting on the sealer coat before laminating the fiberglass to the substrate.

I simply lay the fiberglass where it will go, and use a sponge-foam roller to apply the epoxy. I also babysit the lay up for about 20 minutes after applying to make sure I take care of the dreaded bubbles and to ensure I have a complete wet-out of the cloth.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Wannabe, I think that your are partially right - but partially wrong. Obviously adding epoxy to the outside layers will add strength to the wood, and the wood contributes strength to the entire structure. Adding glass to the outside of the plywood won't replace the plywood's ability to withstand loads of tension and compression - it will add to and reinforce it.

This is an important distinction. If the epoxied plywood has a strength factor of X, then plywood that has been epoxied AND glassed will have a strength factor of X plus some more.