Share the knowledge

[Markc]

Hello,

First of all let me say this a great site with a lot of knowledge, eventhought this is my first post I have been lurking here for a couple of weeks and enjoyed my time here.

The purpose of this post is to try and gain some insite . I want to build a boat that I can haul on the top of my jeep, and use to fish small farm ponds and such, with an ocasional float down a river thrown in for good measure. I want it to be able to fish myself (6'3 ~250) and one other person safely, but still be easy to launch and paddle.

I like the looks of a pirogue, and feel it would be a stable platform, but was wondering what the advantages it would have over a canoe, other than ease of construction?

In your opinion is a pirogue right for me? Any length/width recomendations?

How muchg stability would I loose if I installed seats up off the bottom, similar to what you would find in the typical canoe?


Thanks,
Mark

 

[bearridge]

Friend Mark,

My mind worked like a steel trap, til it rusted. I dont recall seein' a pichur of two full growed folks in a pirogue. I know Nevada Smith 'n that Cajun gal tried ta paddle outta Angola when he wuz after Karl Mauldin, but they turnt bottom upwards 'n a cottonmouth bit her. Keith 'n seedtick showed us that real pirogues are big, hollowed out logs.....not plywood frum Home Depot.

Two folks paddlin' iz harder'n one. Pirogues will turn bottom upwards.....at least I figger they will. Ever since my daughters started paddlin' solo, tandem paddlin' never crossed my mind.....what little there iz left of it.

I am 6' 3" 242.8997 lbs....buck naked. I dont think ya wanna sit up high like on a store bought canoe seat. I dang sho dont wanna be in a canoe with anuther big fella settin' up high....even in a catfish pond, unless Matt draws ya some plans with a WIDE bottom.

These fellas have turned out some fine pirogues......great fer solo paddlin', mebbe takin' a little pardner out on the loch, but I figger ya oughta build solo boats. If ya got a paddlin' buddy, build two boats. Think of it like tent campin' with kids. Quick az ya kin, put 'em in their own tent. Tandem paddlin' iz fer racers. Racin' iz fer........uh.....folks who need help. :wink:

That iz my two cents......worth both of 'em.

regards
bearridge

It matters not how a man dies, but how he lives. The act of dying is no of importance, it lasts so short a time. Dr. Samuel Johnson

 

[hairymick]

G'day Mark and welcome aboard mate.

Great First Post BTW. I wish I had been smart enough to do that before the addiction set in.

I would recommend either this one.

http://jemwatercraft.com/proddetail.php ... 8c6485d854

Or this one,

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddetail ... d=Townsend

Either one will carry the wieght and be a very good first build.

I really don't think a standard pirogue is big enough for two full sized people.

 

[TheOtherHank]

I'm in the middle of building a Merrimac from JEM. It's another 6 panel canoe (i.e., not flat-bottomed) that seems like it will be big enough for me, the wife and the two small boys. You could take a look at that as well.

- Hank

 

[hairymick]

Yep Hank is right,

Merrimac is another fine boat. Here is a link

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddetail ... d=Merrimac

Another option might be this one

http://jemwatercraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=Iroquois

Very similar to a Merrimac only slightly easier build IMHO with the flat bottom.

 

[TheOtherHank]

I just went and re-read your original post. A question that doesn't seem like it's been answered yet is about how a pirogue handles relative to other kinds of boats. Now I've never paddled a pirogue, but I have paddled some quite flat bottomed canoes, and I've read quite a bit on this site, so I'll jump and try to answer the question (in the confidence that all my errors will be pounced on and references made to my Left Coastness and how wonderful grits are and what kind of wood you should use and if a single bladed paddle is the mark of satan, etc. :wink: ).

Flat bottom boats have good Primary Stability, meaning they're relatively easy to get in and out of. But the go from upright to upside down with great abruptness (poor Secondary Stability). As such they are good in calmer water. They also draw much less water than a round bottomed boat so they're good in shallower water and for scooting over things. These things explain their popularity in your swampier areas (pretty calm with lots of shallow bits).

Round bottom boats are bit tippier on entry and exit, but don't have the very abrupt transition to swimming. So they tend to do a bit better in water where you might encounter those pesky wave things.

OK guys, how'd I do?
- Hank

 

[hairymick]

G'day Hank,

I think you covered it nicely.

re the secondary stability thing, it is not such a big deal unless you are expecting to paddle some pretty rough water. A flat bottom boat is fine for most skinny water applications ie small lakes, ponds and creeks etc.

I would not recommend building a seat too high till you get used to the boat. The lower you are sitting in a canoe or pirogue, the greater the stability.

The seat I installed in my touring pirogue is 71/2 inches above the bottom and is too high for many. With a seat base similar to that Chuck uses in his Freedom kayak and a sit-backer chair, the boat is rock solid. this seat places my butt at 31/2 inches above the bottom.

Another very good option might be one of Matt's 16ft Swampgirls, here

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=SG

I have built one of these and can attest to their magnificent stability and fishability It was my first build and I struggled with it a bit but that was all though mistakes on my part. The plans and build instructions were clear and concise, I just tried to take short-cuts. Even with all of the mistakes I made, the boat turned out really well, was a delight to paddle and to fish from. I have no hesitation in recommending this boat.

 

[Markc]

Thanks, Guys!

This is the kind of information I am looking for, I'm off to work but will check the links out when I get home.

I would love to hear everyone elses opinion as well.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[keith]

hi bear, that part with nevada smith and the pirogue (rice field) was shot in port vincent our local boat landing. 2 or 3 people can ride in a pirogue that we make. we have our sides at a greater angle ( 30 - 36 ), so the more you put in it the wider it is in the water. most of the ones on here have wide bottoms and stright /high sides, so all your stability is on the bottom, mine keeps getting more and more. different styles for diff folks. later keith

 

[oldsparkey]

A pirogue is a happy medium between a kayak and a canoe. Not as wide as the canoe but wider then the standard sea kayak.

The pirogue can be made wider then normal and it can be stretched out to 17 or 18 feet if the builder wants it that way. One person made one at 25 feet to paddle tourists around in the bayous of Louisiana.

The standard pirogue is going to be tippy if you raise the seat and your center of gravity up like a seat is in a canoe. I did that with one of mine and it takes some getting use to but after you get the feel for it , no problem. I paddled it for 5 days across the Okefenokee Swamp to try it out.

As far as putting a boat on a Jeep , I have a Wrangler ( rag top) and all of my boats can be transported on the rack , one at a time. :roll:

If you plan on having a buddy with you and you want shallow draft , low sides for fishing , a wider boat with more stability and still light weight I would suggest the Swamp Girl from Jem Watercraft. It is a combination of a pirogue and a canoe , wider , flat bottom , shallow draft and light weight with lots of stability.

The Swamp Girl by Jem Watercraft.

Or... You and your friend could each build a pirogue for fishing and having fun in , two of them would fit on a overhead boat rack. Heck , they will even stack inside each other if you really wanted to take more of them.

Chuck.

 

[bearridge]

Friend keith,

When I git really mad at someone, I like ta pichur Nevada Smith shootin' their kneecaps 'n leavin' 'em way off in the woods. That turns my frown bottom upwards 'n I start ta hum Zippity Do Dah!. I like a movie where the evil doers git what they got comin'......like when Ole Bruce Willis flicked hiz Zippo. :wink:

Mebbe I jest dont recall the pichurs of two big fellas in a pirogue? Me'n Mark like the chow line.......a few of ya'll seem ta like it too. I seen a heap a pichurs of pirogues with one fella in it, one fella 'n a purty gal, one fella 'n a little pardner......but I dont recall seein' one with two big fellas in it.

I reckon ya kin make yer pirogue az big az ya want, but the ones I seen look like their raison detre (that iz high dollar french talk) iz small 'n eazy ta slide in amongst the reeds 'n crowded places. Raison #2 iz eazy ta handle.....onta yer truck 'n inta the water without help frum the Guvinator.

If ya build a giant, two big fella pirogue, seems like it wont be eazy ta tote without two big fellas, so if yer buddy aint willin' ta miss work 'er caint beg off hiz honey do list, mite az well mow the yard......'er build a small pirogue.

Perhaps the High Sheriff will repost some pichurs of two big fellas paddlin' a pirogue?

One thing bout the weather. I hear the talk bout how this iz good fer flat water, but not rough water. I dont know where ya'll git yer weather, but where I git mine, it dont come with any guarantee. Wherever ya paddle, yer boat better be able ta handle anything 'er ya better not paddle far frum yer pickup......less yer ready ta pull over 'n pitch camp. Paddlin' with the High Sheriff ya gotta keep a sharp eye out fer a hoodoochie......'er the tides. Well, I reckon piper better have a keen sense of smell.....which iz a drawback paddlin' with the geezers. :mrgreen:

regards
bearridge
paddlin' geezer canoe clud

Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!

 

[oldsparkey]

Friend keith,

Perhaps the High Sheriff will repost some pichurs of two big fellas paddlin' a pirogue?

regards
bearridge
paddlin' geezer canoe clud

Bear ...

Like you , I have seen some big guys in a pirogue but never two of them , two pirogues with one person in each but not two in one when out paddling. One reason might be because we always have the boats packed with camping gear.

On Uncle Johns web site www.unclejohns.com/ if you click on the pirogues and then go down to the Pictures from builders and flip threw the pictures he has some of two guys in one boat , even two guys and a gal in one of them. All the boats are the standard 15 1/2 foot ones.

Here is one of them

 

[FlaMike]

I'm of the opinion that what most call a "standard sized" Pirogue is actually a rather small one. At least, that's what I get from reading about it's use in the old South, as a "utility boat," or water-borne pickup truck.

Since I built one, I favor Uncle John's design. His leave the final size up to the builder, from a quite small 12 feet, up to over 15 feet. The most useful option for me was the ability to increase the width of the boat. And that's an important part when looking for stability.

Mine came out to 15' 10". I made it 30 inches across the bottom. I could have gone another 4 or 6 inches, but I thought that looked just a little too wide for my taste. At the top of the sides, she's 36 1/2 inches wide. Note that once you get past a certain point, an addtional sheet of plywood will be needed.

This width makes standing up and fishing or poling the boat safe and easy for me. However, I cannot say that others would feel as comfortable doing that as I do. It's different for every individual. I carry it around on a home made PVC rack in my Nissan Frontier pickup truck. As Uncle John's Pirogues go, it's a heave one, about 80 pounds. But I can load and launch all by myself.

All the changes from the original design were done after talking to Uncle John about them. He really knows his stuff and is more than happy to guide you through the building process. Between talking to him and the good folks on this Forum, you'd really have to work at it to mess it up.

A high seat is something to be avoided on most Pirogue designs. As has been said, the initial stability is good, but once you get past that point, things can get wet in a hurry. With a nice, wide bottom, I feel that the initial stability will easily get you through the day. On the UJ web site, you'll find a design for a boat seat that is PERFECT for the Pirogue. Easy to build, looks good, and very comfortable. (The original was designed by oldsparkey, aka: Chuck.)

I spend a lot of time in mine, way out in the heart of nowhere, quite alone and feel perfectly safe in doing so. But that's just me.

When it comes to navigating the skinny water in Florida's backcountry, I'll take a Pirogue over the other designs, any day.

To each, his own.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[oldsparkey]

Mike...

You are 100% correct and the boat is what ever the builder wants it to be.
I made one out of 1/8th inch wood at 18 feet and then trimmed off one end so it was 17 feet. The boat when done and ready for the water weighs a shade less then 40 pounds totally glassed inside and outside. The 15 1/'2 I made weighs in at 32 pounds.

David ( kc4zvw on the forum ) liked it so he has it now and is paddling it around the country. It does sit up nice and dry and with a kayak paddle it scoots along as David showed us on one camping trip.
He would hang back checking things out and then the next thing we knew he was throwing a wake as he passed the rest of us. Just easing down river with a big smile on his face. :lol:

I do not suggest anyone builds one from 1/8th inch wood till they have built one the normal way with 1/4 inch wood. The thinner wood is a little harder to work with and you need to know the steps in the construction of the boat.

If we had a member or someone in Markc's area with a pirogue , I would suggest he gets with them and tries one to really get the feel for it. But look out , David tried that one I made and now you know the rest of the story. That left me with only 4 of the pirogues (Uncle Johns) , a sea kayak ( Pygmy Coho) , the Swamp Girl (Jem Watercraft) , the Freedom (Jem Watercraft) and a Peterborough Canoe( Sealward-Fisher) :roll:

Did I ever say that building wood boats can become addictive ?

Chuck.

 

[bearridge]

O Master of Flow Bizness,

That pichur will likely give Mark the best advice of all. He kin pichur him 'n hiz buddy in that pirogue. That fella in the front looks like 5' 9" 150 pounds. :wink:

regards
bearridge

ps When ya first git back in a paddle boat (after Boy Scout shenanigans), ya figger two paddlers iz better'n one. In most cases it aint. In pickin' yer way round the skinny water, it iz mitey hard fer two ta think like one.....with 'er without comin' blows.

Harry 'n Ray think like one fella.....they wuz paddlin' that Grummann tandem on the Red Sea that time Moses wuz on the run. I reckon Gary, Harry, Jr. 'n Van kin tell the upsidedown side of tandem paddlin' with a big fella. :mrgreen:

I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.  H.L. Mencken

 

[oldsparkey]

Bear...

That is why I paddle by myself , someone else in the boat is usually a recipe for disaster or at the lease a swimming lesson.

I go with the idea that a boat will float from here to England if it comes untied without any problems or anyone in it , it is the person or persons in the boat that make it go belly up.

Every time I have gone swimming was when someone else was in the boat with me , except for the one time on that river without any rapids in it :roll: which the rangers closed after we left on the float trip because of the dangerous rapids.

The canoe did not dump me , I did that all on my own and I like to add ... quite well , like an expert :lol: , it was not the canoes fault. Just a green horn in some water he knew nothing about paddling in and figured swimming would be easier.

The dip (swimming) was quite refreshing to say the lease in the 50 degree water and that rum while standing by the fire was really nice. If I would of known that you guys would do that for me I would of wiped out at every bend , that was some good rum.

Paddling solo and loving it , want to go with me ... then bring your own boat or stay home.

Chuck.

 

[Markc]

OK after reading everyones comments it looks like the swamp girl may fit my needs better.

I understand everyones comments about paddling alone, however my wife likes to go ocasionally, and she isn't ready to fish by herself just yet so if she couldn't ride with me she probably wouldn't go. The swamp girl appears to be the best compromise, light and easy to handle alone, but capable of fishing two.

Now were can I find okoume in South AL? Are their any other wood choices worth considering?

Thanks again,
Mark

 

[JEM]

Not sure if these guys would have it but you could try:

* Centreville - Kornegay Lumber Co, Rt 1, Box 167, 35042, 205/9269087
* Madison - American Hardwoods, Inc, 402 Celtic Dr, 35758, 205/772 0061
* McShan - McShan Lumber Co, Box 27, 35471, 205/375 6277 -
* Montevallo - Seaman Timber Co, Inc, PO Box 372, 35115, 205/665 2536
* Mobile - Wood Box, Inc, 300 S Cody Rd, 36609, 205/341 1666 -

Some builders have luck with door skins and stuff from Home Depot. I'm sure those builders will chime in shortly.
:lol:

 

[bearridge]

Friend Mark,

That iz one good (the best) reason fer tandem paddlin'. Been there myownself. Always go slow with wives 'n kids.....make sho they have fun. In time they will want their own boats, ta go campin', shoot big hogs, etc. :wink:

Matt, aint there a good place in Montgomery? Mark aint far.....how bout Dothan?

regards ' good luck
bearridge

Old age is not so bad when you consider the alternatives.  Maurice Chevalier

 

[oldsparkey]

Some builders have luck with door skins and stuff from Home Depot. I'm sure those builders will chime in shortly.
:lol:

NOT a word from me .............This is Markc decision.

Chuck.