Clicky

tweeking the T-V

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,734
115
83
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Designing a hydrodynamically slick shape is like designing an aerodynamically slick shape. One fluid is thicker than the other, though.

Aspect ration (Length:Width) is part of it. Verlen's credo was no square corners to catch wind or water. He was satisfying himself. Matt, on the other hand, has taken on the monumentally much tougher task of trying to satisfy many other paddlers.

Frankly, I don't know how he does it as well as he does. Were he a good looking nurse-gymnast named Bambii, I could understand it. But, he's an ugly mutt, and he STILL satisfies most of us. Either we're sick, or he's pretty good.

We can run a poll here?
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
I haven't built or paddled one - yet, but I am looking more and more closely at the T-V.

Each and every boat I own has its advantages and disadvantages in any given set of circumstances.

Southwind and Sasquatch are superb paddlers boats with very good load capacity and the capability to take on big water. They are, however very big boats and this in itselfe, imposes limitations.

My pirgoues are superb skinny water boats but not so good in big water.

Lakers are a great, small general purpose kayak but not suitable for big water or big loads.

I think the T-V as drawn, is about the ideal size, hull shape and deck configuration (as shown in Jhegers boat. ((sorry Ron)) for most paddlers in most conditions - most of the time. It also has the added advantage of fewer panels and a less complicated build than some, For this reason, I think it will be a winner. Not only that, it has beautiful lines, serious load capacity and a BIG cockpit for us older blokes whose joints are starting to seize up a bit. :D

Soon as Matt releases these plans, I will be buying them. :D
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
Matt,



I think a square stern version is what you need for your friend.
I sort of think so too.

Square stern is not necessary however - particularly so if there is no advantage in it.

My only concern with this boat for my friend is the beam.

I am not confident she will fit comfortably into a boat, only 28" wide.

Will try to talk to her today
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
Mick
No problem my T-V is a pretty specailized craft built just for my needs
on this trip. Not built as much for looks as to do the job. She is a great craft the best I have ever paddled and did well on my little trip.
I learned a lot of theory of off this thread and when I build my next boat it will probably be close to 16 ft at the water line and if you think the T-V is specailized wait till you see the next one. You always wonder what if
I can take a winner and get just a little more out of her, guess this is what this thread is about.
Ron
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
G'day Ron,

This is the beauty of building our own boats. We build them suit our own needs and wants. I bloody love that. :D

We have several pretty significant kayak/canoe manufacturers here in Oz. Only one of them that I am aware of, has ever asked the question from their customers
" What would you want, if we were to design an entirely new kayak?"

The answers they recieved were even more diverse rhan our opinions in this thread.

They listened to the responses and came up with a boat that pretty much addresses most of what most paddlers were looking for. In this case, a dedicated plastic sit on top fishing kayak. One that is neither high performance or a barge but one with very acceptable performance, combined with the built in features Aussie kayak fishermen were looking for.

http://www.vikingkayak.com.au/profish_kayaks.htm

Matt, is similar, in that he actually listens to what our particular wants, needs and whims are at the moment and then tries his best to accommodate us. This is something no other designer that I have come across has done. The prevailing attitude with other designers seems to be, "These are my boats, Build them or piss off"

An example, is I recently asked a question in public forum about another designer's boat. (it was his forum) He didn't even extend to me the courtesy of responding.
 

keith

Well-Known Member
mick, put her seat up off the floor, its wider.
that 24 " bottom come from that smart guy who invented plywood in 4 X 14 ft. sheets. when making a pirogue, you cut the sides out of the outside and the piece left in the middle was for the bottom, 24 or 26 inches depending on how good you could cut.
and a transom boat will give you more float. later keith
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
Mick
From what I have read about length and stability here is the way I understand it
12 ft boat if it takes say twelve lbs side push to roll her over to say 90%
Then a 16 ft boat with the same hull design should be able to acheave the same degree of roll with 16 lbs of force applied sideways. You are adding 1/4 more in inches of surface contact which is what setts up your stability
and the same with secondary stability
Its all about cubic inches or displacement.
The T-V is the best boat I ever paddled, I had her loaded very heavy
over 425 lbs she tracked much better with the load, glide was good to
speed was acceptable, is 24 at bottom and 29 at maximaimum beam so plenty wide and is like paddling a rock as far as stability is concerned I never felt out of control or tippy in her on my trip and we ran some pretty fast water
I think the WOLF is being born (name for the new boat)
between 16 and 16ft 6 inches in length
23 inches at bottom
27 1/2 at widest point
lower profile on the boat
swede form pretty heavy asymetrical
no tumble homes
Thats the start of my specs I drew up the hull last night but have a couple more weeks before I can start on her.
Sawdust fix coming
Ron
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,734
115
83
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Ron,

I'm interested in your Wolf. Sounds decent. Why no tumble home?

Rolling component is more of a torque moment than a sideways push moment. A boat in a roll maneuver is rotating about its longitudinal axis and does not have to move in any other direction. Width will be important, CG of load will be important, angle of sides will be important.

Cross-sectional geometry will be more important than length. Somewhere, just before it goes over, the variable of paddler proficiency oughta kick in too.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
Jack
We are saying the same thing the resistance to all those things is multiplied bye the length
No tumble homes , The boat is narrow enough at 27 inches to not need them , Paddling the Laker at that width wasn't a problem and I need the straight sides to do a couple things i want to try on this hull .
Ron
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,162
12
South Louisiana
Ron, I'm looking forward to seeing this next build. Having used my pirogue for about 6 months, I think I could go a couple of inches narrower also and still feel stable. The way I figure, if you're not planning on standing in the boat too much, you just as soon go as narrow as you can tolerate.

After paddling alongside all those skinny kayaks this weekend and watching them glide effortlessly through the water, I want my next boat to be closer to that shape.

Joey
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
JD
You might look at the t-v I have paddled it beside some good yaks and she matches up in the performance area well and glides like crazy.
Ron
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,734
115
83
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
jdupre' said:
...After paddling alongside all those skinny kayaks this weekend and watching them glide effortlessly through the water, I want my next boat to be closer to that shape.
Joey, width is only part of the "long glide" formula. Change to a semi-rounded hull for the rest. You will also gain secondary stability that is predictable.

You will lose shallow draft, however.
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,162
12
South Louisiana
Kayak Jack said:
Joey, width is only part of the "long glide" formula. Change to a semi-rounded hull for the rest. You will also gain secondary stability that is predictable.

You will lose shallow draft, however.
It's a balancing act--for every advantage you gain, you lose in another area. Friend Mick has the right idea-- just build a different boat for every situation. :wink: 8)
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
Ron,

I too am interested in your ideas re Wolf. and thing for your thoughts re stability. 8)

I now have my grubby little paws on a set or drawings for the T-V and she will be my next build - no question. :D Thank you Matt. :D

For my purposes, fishing open and semi open water, my Southwind is by far the best boat I own. Skinnwater, laker or pirogue.

At 17'9" Southwind is a little longer than she really needs to be for me.

I think that the T-V set up to my needs would be a very good compromise between extreme open water boat and extreme sinny water boat and very capable in either.

I will be building this boat for my friend and if it is as good as I think it will be, I will also be buildong one for myself.

Oh yeah, jack, I really like what you have done to your boat. 8)