Beginning a UJ Pirogue for the 1st time - Again!

[VTFogg]

Hello everyone,

I purchased Uncle John's pirogue kit 3 or 4 years ago, and after failing to scarf joint the sides the kit was set aside and largely forgotten. I have three sons, and they kid me with "remember how you were going to build a boat dad?" Well, we are very active hikers and skiers but this Vermont winter is largely snowless. So what to do? I know guys, let's build that boat! Guys, I CAN't fail again - they would never let me forget it!

Okay, I took some of my left over home depot luan and tried to scarf joint it yesterday with the same poor results as last time. The core of the luan just seems to fall apart rather that cut at the desired angle. Forget it, I'll try to but joint it instead. I have a couple of questions and hope that you will allow me to benefit from your experiences.

1. Is it ok to use the inexpensive luan 3/16" plywood available at Home Depot, or should I really use something else?

2. Should I use fiberglass resin, or the epoxy? What are the advantages of either? Where do I buy these?

3. Fiberglass tape? I can't seem to find this around here at the hardware stores or Home Depot. Should I just get fiberglass cloth?

4. When butt jointing two pieces, do I coat each of them a couple inches in from the joint first, or do I put tape over the joint first?

Thanks in advance for your help so that I can finally accomplish this project and save face! - Brian

 

[hairymick]

G'day VTFogg,

Welcome aboard mate.

From a personal perspective, I think the scarf joins are a waste of time. A good butt joint is plenty good enough.

1. Is it ok to use the inexpensive luan 3/16" plywood available at Home Depot, or should I really use something else?

I use something similar and have had no problems.

2. Should I use fiberglass resin, or the epoxy? What are the advantages of either? Where do I buy these?

I would use epoxy. it is easier to work, stronger and gives better bond.
I will post a link at the bottom of this for some very good build tips and shortcuts

3. Fiberglass tape? I can't seem to find this around here at the hardware stores or Home Depot. Should I just get fiberglass cloth?

Same as above.

4. When butt jointing two pieces, do I coat each of them a couple inches in from the joint first, or do I put tape over the joint first?

Again, same as above.

In particular, I would recommend you check out the following sections.

1. Stitch and Glue Tutorial

2. Tips and Tricks

3. Questions and comments

4. Builder Log


Here is the link.

http://jemwatercraft.com/forum/index.php

 

[Anonymous]

1st

I would also suggest that you look at

http://www.raka.com/EpoxyPricing.html

for your epoxy and glass needs.

This is from personal use, not an advertizement for any paticular company or product.

 

[VTFogg]

Thanks very much hairymick and Bald Cypress. The web is indeed a wonderful thing. How else would a guy in Vermont, USA get some good advice from boat builders in Australia, and Louisianna?!

I'll read all the material on those links and report on my progress.

- Foggy

 

[Slammer]

First of all, you can get it done with help from these guy's. They are great help, modivaters and all around good humorist.

I read the forums even when I'm not building to gather insight, knowledge and giggles.

What you do is stay logged in..........go to the index page......and when you click on it....in the upper right hand side there is a view posts from last visit........save that page. Then each time, you click on that one it will list all posts since last visit.

I had a ton of questions.....read everything you can and not only on this forum (pirouge, read the serious boat builders questions etc). Here is my post and it might answer a few things..... Read from start to finsih. http://www.neilbank.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0


I wrote down alot of my thoughts, and had the intentions of puting them all on one thread. I think it would be good reading.

Don't get to frustrated.....you will.......believe me......

Use epoxy, I used RAKA and they were good help. I used cloth and glad I did. In the future I will cloth the outside and tape the seams on the inside.

I believe i saturated first, then fiberglassed.

Butt joint.....Butt Joint....Butt joint............I would have never, ever ever gotten a scarf to work. Heck even the butt joint scared me.

here are some pics. Third one down http://www.unclejohns.com/boat/photos%2000.htm

 

[VTFogg]

Wow, I feel better already. I thought I was an idiot for failing with my scarf joints, but it seems many others before me have found them to be troublesome. I've been reading the sites which have lots of good info. I've barely begun and thoughts are going through my mind of what style to build for the next boat! I hope to order some epoxy tomorrow. Another question though. Is it ok to epoxy in an unventilated basement? How bad/harmful are these funes?

Foggy

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, I feel better already. I thought I was an idiot for failing with my scarf joints, but it seems many others before me have found them to be troublesome. I've been reading the sites which have lots of good info. I've barely begun and thoughts are going through my mind of what style to build for the next boat! I hope to order some epoxy tomorrow. Another question though. Is it ok to epoxy in an unventilated basement? How bad/harmful are these funes?

Foggy

FUMES = BAD ventilate and wear gloves and mask and VENTILATE

Open a window and put a BIG fan in or something. But, VENTILATE

 

[hairymick]

Wow, I feel better already. I thought I was an idiot for failing with my scarf joints, but it seems many others before me have found them to be troublesome.

Mate, I am lucky enough to be in a position at my work where I can practice these joints whenever I want to. I have yet to achieve a scarf joint in a wide piece of ply that I am happy with.

While I haven't been able to test the joints to destruction, I believe the added strength of a scarf over a well executed butt joint is marginal and is of little benefiet in a canoe or kayak. Certainly not enough to justify the added work and effort that is required to make one look good.

A substandard scarf joint, while probably strong enough, will still be ugly. sort of like a mitre joint in a picture frame that doesn't meet properly and has a small gap. For a joint like this to look any good, it needs to look like it grew there. IMHO.

Don't beat yourself up mate. I teach this sort of stuff for a living and am still not confident enough to even try to make the series of scarf joints required to complete a boat hull. A butt joint is plenty good enough and looks fine on the finished boat.

 

[hairymick]

Yep. agree with all bald Cypress said.

 

[JEM]

Only thing I can scarf well is a pizza with some cold beer. It is a tough technique to get right on thin plywood.

I gave up trying and stick with fiberglass splices or wooden butt blocks.

 

[islandpiper]

hey vermonter, I use scarfed joints with no real trouble, but I tend to build these 2 at a time, so stacking up eight side panels gives me a nice long face to plane and sand. I'm using butted bottom sheet joints now, and putting the joint under the center rib. And, against all common advice here, I use 3/4" silicon bronze ring-shank boat nails to hold the panels onto the rib, etc.

Biggest rule.......it's a boat, not a jewelry box. Just build the damned thing and then use it. If you make a jewelry box, you won't use it, for fear of scratching it.

Go to the Auto parts store for glass tape if your local big-box stores don't carry it.

Have fun!!

Piper

 

[seedtick]

Be wary of fiberglass from non-marine suppliers.

Glass fibers are coated with a sizing (or finish) to facilitate weaving. Some finishes are compatible with polyester resins, others with epoxy resins and still others can go both ways.

Be sure you know what you're buying.

 

[Slammer]

Have to agree with islandpiper,

no matter what you screw up........it can be fixed.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Foggy,

glad you're on here, and listen to what these guys tell you. Unless, of course, it doesn't agree with what I tell you. (ahem)

Only thing on here that I would provide a second opinion on is the quality of wood used. Some really good wood workers can get by with lower quality wood. I found out I can't. I'm not that good of a wood craftsman.

I stick strictly to the Okoume that is Grade A on both sides. I think the current designation is 1088, but not sure. This has no fills or voids, bends and twists uniformly so no unexpected bulges in your planks, and won't come apart if stabbed with a sharp rock or tree stump.

A boat has ONE - and only one - primary mission - to float. If it doesn't, nothing else much matters. think two words here - hull integrity.

Another thought that support what has been said. the ugliest boat I ever saw was one made of 1/2" plywood and 2 X 4's. Had marks fomo hammers and saw cuts all over it. It was at a boat show. I stopped and asked the guy next to it the story. "My 5th grade shop class made it." he proudly announced. "And then, I took each one fishing in it."

"You sly dog - you HOOKED every one of those kids on boats, didn't you?"

"Yep!"

Point here is, if your kids help you build a boat, ACCEPT LESS THAN STERLING QUALITY WORK GRACIOUSLY, DAD. It's THEIR boat, not yours.

 

[VTFogg]

Good advice Kayak Jack. I can tell you raised boys too. I may have to hold off a bit on using the epoxy. I'll be building in my basement and have two double hung windows side by side which I'll open to ventilate. Not tonight though - thermometer is showing 12 degrees below zero right now and still dropping.

Foggy

 

[Kayak Jack]

Ventilation may not as urgent as formerly indicated. For industrial use where an entire factory or area is flooded with epoxy fumes - yes. One boat, 2-8 ounces of epoxy curing are some different. Just not many fumes being generated.

An open window, or window ajar brings in fresh air and dilutes the fumes. Your gas furnace and water heater will welcome the replacement air.

Read the directions that came along with the epoxy.

 

[islandpiper]

Jack, i agree......but take into account that RAKA eboxy is among the lowest odor epoxy available. Some are pretty strong smelling.

Nothing is as bad as the old polyesters we used to use

I also agree with your earlier comments about wood quality. However, I tend to build silk purses our of sows ears whenever possible. I may have to change that when I get started on that Okwata Kayak that JEM designed......I might blow the wad on that one and buy some real wood. I'd like at least one boat that is as pretty as yours!!

The beauty of the epoxy systems is that with proper planning and set-up a guy can tape 2-3 feet in an evening and quit.......or glass just the bottom and quit......you don't have to do the whole thing at one sitting.

Liked your comment about building a boy with a boat a few days ago. been there......done that......
and that boy is a fine man now, a Civil Engineer.

Cheers, Piper

 

[islandpiper]

Here is what I mean about jewelboxes.......this is my son in his UJ Pirogue......a jewel box IT AIN'T......but it has a lot of miles on it and has brought a lot of fun to a lot of camping trips etc. Notice the unmatched painted spots and the wear and tear........and notice the stability of this fine boat!


Cheers, Piper

 

[Kayak Jack]

Piper-san,

Good job on both boy and boat. (Good thing he looks like his Momma.)

Many miles make many smiles and many scratches. A well scratched boat is a well loved boat. Our boats are tools to take us where we want to go. Mine aren't furniture to sit and gawk at.

 

[hairymick]

Piper, 'tis a great lookin boat from here., sounds like you did a real good job on the youn bloke too.

For me, a boat is no good till it's got a dent or too and a few battle scars All of my boats have these I reckon it gives them character. Bit like the young blokes, they don't really become men till they have sufered a few set-backs and learnt from them and how to deal with them.