Do I need a pirogue?

[thumbs]

G'day
I'm new here and up til a week or so ago I had never heard of a pirogue.
I came across the name while browsing some forums looking for info on a stable sit-on kayak or similar that I could use for fishing and more particularly fly fishing. I was particularly keen to find something that I may be able to stand on and then I read a comment that the most stable small boat/kayak/canoe was a pirogue - and so, here I am!
I will be extremely grateful for any advice you can offer as to whether a pirogue might be suitable. I am particularly drawn to the idea of the simplicity and the open uncluttered design of the boat but a little unsure of it's stability.
I will be using the boat in flat water only, coastal estuaries and some fresh water impoundments (around the edges) and don't envisage any very long paddling trips although some of the water could be a little open to wind.
If a pirogue is an option and given that I have never built a boat previously, would it be better for me to go with a standard plan such as an UJ piro or similar, or would a JEM touring piro or even the JEM Swamp girl be more suitable? Would they be too difficult to build for a first timer?
Sorry for all the questions but any advice you can offer will be much appreciated.
Thanks
Jeff

 

[oldsparkey]

G'day

If a pirogue is an option and given that I have never built a boat previously, would it be better for me to go with a standard plan such as an UJ piro or similar, or would a JEM touring piro or even the JEM Swamp girl be more suitable? Would they be too difficult to build for a first timer?
Sorry for all the questions but any advice you can offer will be much appreciated.
Thanks
Jeff

Pro..........
The standard pirogue is the easiest to make , it only requires two sheets of plywood and a good boat for a 1st timer to make. It offers the learning skill on making a wood boat.
Con........
It is narrower then a canoe and wider then most kayaks ( Sea Kayaks ). It is tippy when you 1st get in it but like riding a bicycle it becomes easier as time goes by. The tippiness of it is when the center of gravity is raised so standing in it is an art that has to be learned. With a low center of gravity it just goes where you want it. One person on the forum bow Fishes from his while standing up. I don't stand in mine except to get in and out of it. :roll:

The JEM Touring Pirogue offers more stability but again it would require some learning to stand in it. It is closer (in action ) to a kayak but offers the same as the pirogues.

From the list of the boats you posted I have made kayaks , canoes and other boats but not the Touring Pirogue. I have paddled with folks who did make one and they really like them. From what I have seen of the Touring Pirogue it is an easy boat to paddle and will take a lot of weight in it , especially when loaded with camping gear.

The JEM Swamp Girl is the widest of the three boats and offers the most stability , especially for standing while fishing. Making the Swamp Girl is a little more involved but not a lot. It is basically a wider pirogue that was designed for backwaters and fishing.
It requires three sheets of plywood for the 16 foot model. I made the 1st one and used it for fishing , camping and river running , it is very stable and an easy boat to fish from.
It is a custom design I requested from Matt and after e-mails and working on how it should be he came up with the plans to make it. Here is a picture of the Swamp Girl on a camping and fishing trip I took.

 

[lil'moe]

I have two of the Uncle John's piros--they are great little boats, easy to build, stable and handle smallish water good. I also have a short (12' stretched to 13") Swampgirl. It has decks added to achieve a 6' long cockpit. I should say I HAD a swampgirl-my wife and 10 year old granddaughter claim it now. The piros are defiitely easiest to build, but I think the Swampgirl handles the waves and rougher water better. I' sure the decks have a bit to do with the way it handles the wind too. For my first, I'd go with the piro-it can handle most of what you throw at it and it makes a great learner. After one, the second comes easier!!

 

[thumbs]

Oldsparkey
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I am sort of leaning towards one of the piro's just because I think the build will be considerably easier and from what I can see from Johno's post and pics while building the swamp girl the hull looks fairly complex. Love the shape of the hull mind you so might still change my mind!!!!.
Maybe the JEM Touring Pirogue -TV 15-32 is a good solution.
I still have this fixation about being able to stand though which is probably directly relate to my ordinary fly casting ability and the need for more clearance from undergrowth, grass, etc!
Your swamp girl looks great. Do you have any more pics of it anywhere else on the forum?
thanks again
Jeff


Lil'moe
Thanks for the input.
From what I've seen here the pirogue certainly does look easier and that's a good thing when you've never built one before!
You know what it's like though, you want to have all the questions answered before you start and get it perfect first time - yeah right!
Not sure what you mean by "smallish water". Where I intend to fish while flat water ie not sea, is not as protected as in swamp water. Mainly estuaries and dams so quite exposed to wind and can get a bit of chop.
J

 

[oldsparkey]

The wind will blow a pirogue around because of it's shallow draft. In fact the wind will have an effect on any of the three boats you asked about.
Off hand I would say that the TV would have the least trouble with the wind ( especially if it has some decks on it ) and if you get into some decent size waves it would handle them better.

I sent the pictures to Matt to use on his web site after it was made.

I squared off the stern so a trolling motor could be used , if I wanted to have one on there.

I made it out of 1/8th inch wood so the bottom was built up with 1 inch wide by 1/8th inch thick strips of left over wood to strengthen it.

My neighbor trying it so I could take a picture of it being paddled.

 

[thumbs]

Don't plan to be out in waves but I guess you can get caught out.
I will think hard about the TV. Might even drop Matt a line to get his opinion.

Really nice looking boat!
Beautiful lines.

thanks again.
Jeff

 

[JEM]

I've always said standing in a boat is 40% boat and 60% the person's sense of balance.

The Swamp Girl or TV-32 will give you the best shot at that will keeping the build simple. Swamp girl will take a little more effort to draw the more-curved panels. But we're talking less than 15 minutes extra. If you're using "inexpensive" ply, then I'd think about the TV more. The Swamp Girl has a pretty tight twisting shape in the bow.

 

[hairymick01]

G'day Jeff,

like Chuck, I have built both a swampgirl and a couple of pirogues. I am also familiar with the waters you will probably be fishing.

Just a suggestion, Why not build a pirogue first. You will have a superb boat to use while you ponder your next build. - and there WILL be a next one mate. :mrgreen:

 

[thumbs]

G'day Mick
Yes, I will definitely be building a pirogue first.
Put a few questions to Matt at JEM on his forum and got some input from him another member which was very informative and helpful.
At the moment the boat of choice is the touring pirogue either with a flat bottom plus one or more rubbing strips (mini keel) or with a slightly V'd bottom. Not sure which yet. Maybe you could advise?
Trying to get my head around costs (epoxy and ply) and the availability and choice of plywood that is available here. What did you use for your boats?
Any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Jeff

 

[hairymick01]

Mate, For the ply on my touring pirogue, I simply bought 2 sheets of 4mm exterior bracing ply from bunnings. Its a little heavier than Gaboon or even Luan but I think its a good compromise at a reasonable price.

Re the epoxy, I use only West Systems Epoxy that I get from ATL COMPOSITES at http://www.atlcomposites.com/distributors/index.htm Ph no. 75563122 Ask for Scott Alexander

You can get glass there pretty reasonable too.

Re the gunwhales, i would look for clear (no knots) hoop pine in about 25mm X 12mm. You should be able to source this at a good timber joinery. I go to a local bloke here in Maryborough and get him to rip some down for me. last set cost me about $40.00 I thnk.

If you want to spend the money, I think you might be able to get BS1088 marine ply from Australian wood Panels in Brisbane 0733765600 http://www.woodpanels.org.au/

Or from Boat craft Pacific on the Gold Coast, 07 38061944 http://boatcraft.com.au/ ( They also sell quality marine epoxy and might be worth comparing prices)

 

[thumbs]

Mick
How was the finish on the bracing ply? My experience of the stuff (building not boat-building) is that the surface finish is a bit rough! Did you get a good finish on the boat?
I was reading about the Bote-Cote epoxy just yesterday. Sounds like the goods and I think it's a bit less expensive than the West System.
Did you build your Touring Pirogue with a flat bottom? I've been toying with the idea of doing a slight V as I have heard it helps a lot with tracking. What did you do and how did it turn out?
Jeff

 

[hairymick01]

Mate, the finish was superb. I gave the ply a lite sand then saturated with epoxy before I styarted to fibre-glass and It came up a treat. Prior to epoxy, it was a "c" finish ply and a pretty ordinary "C" grade at that.

Yeah My pirogue had a flat bottom and I put a small keel along the centre line. Reduced maneuverablility a bit but tracked very well.

 

[tx river rat]

Thumbs
Take a look at the T-V I have paddled both and in my opion the T-V is a much better boat.
Ron

 

[thumbs]

Mick
The finish looks great. Well that helps with my selection of ply and keeps the weight and the cost down.
The mini keel looks good but I'm still toying with the idea of building it with a V bottom. I think Matt has a plan for one and I will need to check with him.
I'm still wrestling a bit with the size and stability of the boat. 15' is a good deal longer than I originally envisaged as I only have a Suzuki Vitara to put it on and the rack will be less than 4' long i think. So lots of overhang!!! Too much I think. Think I would need to have support down to the front bumper. Whereas 12' would be a lot more manageable.
I did see a post somewhere where someone built the TP at 12' or 13'. I will have to investigate a little more.
Just last night I was looking at the CLC Sassafras (perhaps a little difficult for a 1st build?) and JEM Eno as well, thinking of size, weight and stability. Have you had any experience of these?
I will be fly fishing in local waters (Maroochy and Noosa Rivers, Pumicestone, Borumba, Ewen Maddock, etc) which you probably know quite well.
Do you have any comments re boat choice? I know you built the Swamp Girl first. Do you still have her?
thanks for all the info.
Jeff

TX - Thanks Mate.
I have looked at the T-V but just prefer the simplicity and lines of the TP.
cheers
Jeff

 

[Kayak Jack]

<SNIP>I only have a Suzuki Vitara to put it on and the rack will be less than 4' long i think. So lots of overhang!!! Too much I think. Think I would need to have support down to the front bumper. Whereas 12' would be a lot more manageable. <SNIP>

Jeff, what ever boat you get, and whatever vehicle you have a rack on, be sure to tie down both ends of the boat to the bumper. THAT is your support fore and aft on a car rack.

 

[thumbs]

No worries Jack.
You can be sure I will!
cheers

 

[bcwetcoast]

Thumbs

I have a wooden 13' Laker and two plastic 17' Necky sea kayaks (got them super cheap ex rentals). I have a Grand Vitara and have taken two of the tree boats on it with no problem. I built wooden cross bars for the roof racks, use rachet straps to tie them to the bar and then rope from the ends to the bumper (front and back). No problems travelling at highway speeds.

 

[thumbs]

bcwetcoast
17' is a long boat!
My concern is that for a 15' boat the overhang front and back (of the rack) will be say 5' 6" each (based on a 4' rack).
Not 100% sure, but I think that's too long to be legal (the back one). Will have to check.
cheers
Jeff

 

[oldsparkey]

The cross bars on the roof rack that is on my Jeep Wrangler are 3 feet 9 inches apart. I have carried a 17 foot kayak on there and a 14 foot canoe , at different times. :wink: Both boats with there difference in length rode quite well up there in all sorts of weather conditions.
I had two straps over them holding them to the rack and two lines at each end of the boats. Those lines were run down to the front and rear bumpers as insurance against the boats coming loose , which they never did. When using the lines on the end of a boat make sure you do not pull them down real tight. Leave a little play in them to stop from putting a warp into the boat. That is especially required when roof topping a plastic boat. Fortunately all of my boats are wood.

 

[tx river rat]

The legal aspect comes from the overal length of your vehicle and hang over measure from that point not the rack widths
Ron