FlaMike's Pirogue Build! | SouthernPaddler.com

FlaMike's Pirogue Build!

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
I'd hoped to get this started yesterday, but since the time I'd gotten back from the shopping spree, I'd been up for just over 36 hours and was afraid I would make a series of really stupid mistakes. So, I thought I'd just get some sleep and start fresh, so I could begin making a series of more intelligent mistakes. :lol:

Pretty sure I've got my homework done. I've read just about every post on this Forum about the build. Called Uncle John yesterday just before doing my shopping. I used a pre-written list of questions so I wouldn't forget any. He's a lot of fun to talk with!

My digicam's battery is in the charger. I'll promised Uncle John a good set, and I will be posting pictures in this thread.

I know I tend to make long, wordy, boring post, and I am anxious to get started, so I won't let this one get too far ahead of the process.

Since I am going to be fly fishing with this boat, I'm taking the advice of many and making the bottom wider than the plan specs. Uncle John said, "32, to 34 inches maybe, just eyeball it. If it looks right, it will be."

I'll have to use a 3rd sheet of plywood to do this, no problem. I'll cut all the side pieces out of one sheet, and use the other two for the bottom. Making those cuts will be the first thing I do. Prob'ly cut two 38" wide sheets for the bottom, to give some "maneuvering room." Then I'll join the parts to make the two side panels and the bottom panel.

With those "cooking-off," I'll get to work on the stem & stern post and the four frames. Uncle John advised that after I set the frames in place, to take a look as see if it adding a 5th frame in the center will be needed. Again, he says "the eye" will tell."

Oddly enough, I understand what he means.

Pictures will be taken along the way and be posted late in the evenings.

Enough of this! I gotta' get started!

Looking forward to all your comments, suggestions, criticisms, and totally non-related comments as well,

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

hairymick

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2005
2,107
2
Queensland, Australia
G'day Mike,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the dark side. Wood boat building

Ya realize of course, that one boat will never be enough. :D

Now, What can I say to hijack this one. :twisted: :D

Actually mate, I am looking forward to your build. Uncle John is right on the mark when he told you the eye will tell you if it is right or not.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Before I get too talky, let me see if I can post a pic of my "boatyard." The garage has too much going on in there to build in it, but if it looks like rain, I should be able to move everything inside.

Here's a picture post try:

PBuild001.jpg


Well! That seems to have worked! :D

Kindly ignore that green-painted pile of aluminum. . . When I took that one, I'd already cut out the side & bottom pieces, and ripped the stock for the frames.

In the next one, you can see where I'm trying to "glass butt-splice" both side pieces at once. For me, this probably will turn out to have been a bad idea. One side at a time would have been much easier, but I can see where a little practice, sandwiching several butt joints should be fairly easy. Here 'tis:
PBuild002.jpg


Close-up of the "gravity clamp."
PBuild003.jpg


While posting these, I heard a familiar sound, one that I knew was important, but I just couldn't place it.

RAIN! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG! :shock:

That was NOT supposed to happen today!

It wasn't much, but just enough to give everything a good soaking. First thing I did while it was still raining was to open the garage door and drag that pile of "cooking" side pieces straight inside. I was able to move them all at once, without disturbing the joint. (I think.)

I piled all the tools on top of the table saw, and wrestled it inside, just as the gerstink'in rain stopped. :roll:

Although the picture posting looks like it worked when I "preview" the post, I won't know for sure until I actually submit the post. I'll do that, in a minute.

Here's the problem I may have created, already. (Worse than the rain.) I am not sure, but I may have messed up the epoxy mix on the second side panel joint. Not sure why, but I am wondering if I mixed it 2 to 1, or only 1 to 1. Not sure what put that thought in my head, but the fact that it is in there means my subconscious was paying attention to something the conscious part wasn't.

Guess I'll find out later, when I peel that pile apart. :)

I'm not too concerned about the rain soaking everything down, as tomorrow's sun will dry it all, muy pronto. I will have to carefully stack the ripped frame stock so it won't warp, and put some weights on the plywood bottom pieces, as they already started to warp.

One lesson learned, other than assuming the weather forecast is always WRONG, I need to stick with the slow working hardener. Since I have 3/4 of a gallon of both fast and slow, I was using a mix of the two, like the Raka web site says you can do.

Still, in this heat, the epoxy went off much faster than I thought it would. I may just order another bottle of the slow stuff, and leave the fast hardener alone.

That's it for now,

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,976
171
86
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Mike,

I'm not sure how much mass is in your gravity clamp. You can get an epoxy joint too tight, squeeze out the glue, and have an "epoxy starved joint". I did that on the coaming of my first kayak. CRACKKKK-K-K (followed closely by an ominous sounding) "Oh $HIT!"

Just enough weight to hold things together, plus only a tad bit more.

If your driveway workshop gets a passing rain storm again, maybe just lay some tarps on the stuff? Moving things before your glue is set is not a good policy.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
I get what your saying, Kayak Jack, about over-clamping an epoxy joint. The bottom weight is lighter than it looks, it is a home-made boat anchor. You know the type, coffee can filled with concrete, eye-bolt in the top.

The second weight on top wasn't added till well after the epoxy started setting up. The epoxy left in the mixing pot had already gone "hot" and could only be dented with a thumbnail. I added that second weight, thinking about how the board the weight was sitting on was spreading the load across a pretty wide area.

Guess there was no real need to add it, even if it was needed, the epoxy was already too firmed-up for the weight to have much of an effect on it. But I do know what you mean, epoxy doesn't require the same "clamping pressure" that many other glues do.

Right now, I'm more concerned with the second butt joint where I *may* have mixed it 1:1, instead of 2:1. I hope I didn't really do that!

A tarp would do me some good, once I get to the point of having the boat up on the saw horses. As it is, water tends to puddle on that concrete pad. Had the rain held off like it was supposed to, I had planned on getting a tarp to cover the boat.

It does look like it may rain some more. So, I plan on moving some stuff around in the over-crowded garage and get some work done on the frames. While I'm at it, I'll see if I can squeeze enough space open to maybe continue the build inside the garage. Not sure that's do-able.

Got to run, I have a passel of cats to feed and a dog to walk.
(I'm guessing the picture-posting worked.)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
10,479
123
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
Mike...

If you mixed it 1 to 1 and it is sticky in the morning then just mix up a small batch of the proper mix and put it on there ..... I did the same thing and the correct mix covered/corrected the problem.

If the rain got some water in the wood ... let it dry and then jump several steps ahead and epoxy saturate ( with some acetone mixed in the epoxy so it penetrates deeper in the wood) it when it has dried , this will stop any deliamination of the wood.
Will make working with it a little harder but will save the wood.

Don't Panic... This is not brain surgery , just fun. "O" If I did not say this then let me do that now ..... It is best to not get into a hurry , take each step and know what the next three steps are........ Take Your Time.... enjoy the building process.

Chuck.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Thanks for the encouragement, oldsparkey.

Just took a look at the joints, looks like it worked. As for one being "hardener rich," if I did do it, I can't tell by looking at it. Maybe I didn't make that particular mistake, after all. :)

But I will keep your "fix" for that, on file. As for saturating the ply with epoxy before building with it, Uncle John told me that he knows some builders do just that and it didn't sound like a bad idea to him.

Don't think the wet ply is in danger of delamination. I've had this happen before, with the same exterior grade ply, while working on other projects. Most of the time, the only thing that happens is warping. And this happens mostly when only one side gets wet, or if the sun bakes the topside dry, leaving the other side still wet.

When that happens, I usually just have to wet both sides and lay it down so the center is bowed upwards, and place some weight on it. When it flattens out, I turn it over, weight it down, and let that side dry. Usually works pretty well.

When the garage cools down a bit, I'm going back out there and make so space to start building the frames, stem, and stern post. I may have to wait until tomorrow to glue up the frames, due to a lack of floor space.

I will not be messing with those side pieces until tomorrow. I want to make sure the epoxy has had time to cure. Then I can try my hand at sanding wax paper off the joints. :oops:

I may try some experiments tonight to see if any of the plastic I have laying around will work better than the wax paper did, failing that, I guess I'll just have to get some Plexiglas, like I was told. :D

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Uh, maybe I won't be going back out and working in the garage tonight. Seems I have a killer headache.

Could be from being out in the sun today, or from eye-strain, playing on the computer so long.

Think maybe I strained a brain muscle, 'cause the brain doesn't get very much exercise?

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
I did take a look at those butt joints late last night, just before turning it. One of the side panels looked real good, other than the wax paper I'll have to sand off. (Wonder if the Fla. heat has something to do with this?)

The other side panel didn't have what I'd call a joint, it was more along the lines of a hinge. I'm no expert, but I don't think that's a good thing. . .

Either that second pot of epoxy I had to mix to glue up the second side panel, because the first batch cooked off faster than I was ready for, was indeed a 1:1 instead of 2:1, or I looked at it too soon and when I peeled the wax paper (I know!) away, the FG tape came away with it.

Now, I discovered the missing tape last night, after my last post. So, I mixed up a little more epoxy and applied another piece of tape, this time using a sheet of plastic from a bag normally used for transporting live fish, for a glue barrier.

Have to say, that plastic sheet looks like it works very well. So far, at least. The epoxy is still soft, so I haven't tried to peel the plastic off just yet. And I won't not until the epoxy in the tub has cured solid.

But when I start my Jon boat build, I will have the Plexiglas sheets ready, like I should have, this time.

I like that about those mixing tubs from Raka. Once the epoxy has hardened, you can pop it out of the tub. Those tubs can be used over and over again, just like new, each time. I suppose some might be inclined to save the epoxy that was left over, they look like they might make nice hockey pucks. (I would not be one of those people.)

Not sure just how much I'll be able to get done today. I don't want to stress the butt joints by bending the sides until they are completely cured. What I think I'll do is look at the bottom sheets and see if they are dried out from the rain yesterday, enough to tape them together, if not, then I'll start on frames, stem, and stern post. Even if they aren't completely dry, I can still do all the cuts, just won't try epoxying them together until they are dry.

I'll be adding plywood gussets to the frames, so I'll pay particular attention to cutting them out, that should make getting the frames done with the right angles a lot easier.

I'm almost positive it is going to rain today, hopefully not until the after noon. My first impulse is to say the heck with it and break out the old belly boat and go fishing. But, I'm resisting that urge.

Instead, as soon as I finish this post, I'm going to lay out all the wood that's still damp and let the sun dry it, while it's still shining. Next, I'll move around enough stuff in the garage so I can make the bottom panel butt joint, inside the garage. I'll move the table saw back out and get to work on the frames, stem, and stern post, along with the frame gussets. Those will be glued up inside, as well.

Since I'll have to join some stock for the rub rails, I'll see if I can get to that, too. I'll make sure their scarf joints are NOT in the middle. I do remember those joints do not like to take a bend very well.

Anywho, off I go!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
10,479
123
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
OK.. Start Cussing at me for not saying this earlier.

If you plan your moves several steps ahead then when you mix up the epoxy , it can be used to do those steps which aren't required at this time. Like joining the side boards joints and the side railing joints at the same time. Not to each other but making one long board out of the two short ones.

Or gluing the ribs together , anyplace where you would/will have to use the epoxy. No matter what you do there will be some left over epoxy , the trick is to see where you can use it.

That would be really useful when you start the Jon Boat since there is more to assemble when building it. :D

Chuck.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
OK.. Start Cussing at me for not saying this earlier.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
No can do, Chuck! You did say it earlier, maybe not quite in that exact context, but you said it!

Today hasn't been very productive, so far. I did like I said and went right out, setting the wood out to dry, and started moving stuff around in the garage. But I had to cut the moving stuff short, as the sun vanished behind the clouds and I could small rain in the air.

So, everything got whisked right back in the garage!

However, it hasn't been a total loss. I found a few things I forgot I had. Like a router, for one thing, which goes a long way towards explaining the router bits I turned up earlier. Seems I also not only have an electric plane, but a little belt sander, as well! I kind of remember that power plane, just don't recall when I got the belt sander. . .

Of all the things I've lost, it's my mind that I miss the most.

Of course, the day's only half-shot. I can still work on the frames & stuff. I managed to set the table saw up right under a new shop light. And I do think if I get a little more creative with the moving stuff, I just might be able to join the bottom panel halves together.

One concern though, the epoxy I used to "fix" the bad butt joint is still soft. OK, so the first time I might have made the mix with way too much hardener, if I did it the other way around this time, too little hardener, would that account for it not setting up yet? And if I did actually short the hardener (which I kind of doubt,) will it cure slowly, or never quite cure at all?

Since there's at least two ways to screw up a simple job like mixing epoxy, I'd like to get them both out of the way as soon as possible!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
10,479
123
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
FlaMike said:
One concern though, the epoxy I used to "fix" the bad butt joint is still soft. OK, so the first time I might have made the mix with way too much hardener, if I did it the other way around this time, too little hardener, would that account for it not setting up yet? And if I did actually short the hardener (which I kind of doubt,) will it cure slowly, or never quite cure at all?

Since there's at least two ways to screw up a simple job like mixing epoxy, I'd like to get them both out of the way as soon as possible!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Darn .. You are good....... Doing it both ways , I think you have set a new record. :lol: :lol: Or you are the only one who had the nerve to say that.

If it is a bad mix and nothing else works , then I would suggest scraping as much off as you can without getting into the wood and starting over with the epoxy.
The up side is that the one piece will really be epoxy saturated. The other positive is that you located a lot of tools you had forgotten about. That is a savings by it's self.

It is always better if you can take a negative and make it a positive which you are doing.

Chuck.
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Looky what I found!
If some areas are still tacky then it was the mix, short on the hardener. The roller would not affect the curing of the epoxy.

Fixing it is easy just mix another batch and put it over the tacky one, when this one cures it will set the other or you could take all of it off with some acetone and start over.

I had the same problem with one batch and decided to roll some fresh over it and see what happens ....... it set up and everything was OK.
Sound familiar?

This was a post you made, Sep 15, 2003. Found it when I went to the last page of the Pirogue section, and started reading forwards.

If that stuff is still soft, I'm going to give the above advice a try.

I'll let you know! :D

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Update on the epoxy problem:

My initial try at getting the one side of a taped butt joint to "kick" off by adding an additional (thin) layer of correctly mixed epoxy didn't work, as the new batch failed to kick, just like the previous batch.

So, I was pretty sure it wasn't because I messed up the mix, besides, the folks at Raka said a "hardener-rich" mixture should actually kick off faster than the standard mix.

I ran a little test. Normally, I'd have mixed the slow and fast hardener 50-50, and then added twice that volume of resin. For my test, I made a very small batch of one with just the slow hardener & resin, as second with the fast stuff.

Neither one showed any activity, after several hours!

All of the resin and hardener had been stored in the garage for 5 or 6 years. I figured the time and heat had gotten to it.

BUT! I had a NEW gallon of resin, just received the other day! Ran the same test as before and this time, both test batches started getting warm, within a couple of minutes.

The fast resin batch was quite hot about 5 minutes or so into the test, the slow batch just stayed kind of warm. That was very late last night. This morning, the fast batch was solid as a rock and I was able to pop it out of the plastic cup. The slow batch was not quite hard, it could be dented with a thumbnail, but did seem to be fairly solid.

I called Raka and they confirmed my suspicions, but suggested that the old resin might not be a write-off. It seems that over time, resin stored in a hot area, can under go a separation of sorts. It may well be that all I need to do is mix the resin in the jug before dispensing it, and that half-gallon or so could still be usable. I'll put that to a test, later today.

Might be just luck that when I mixed the first couple of batches, the resin I drew up was mixed just enough to work. Then the last couple of batches were of the separated resin, and they failed. That would explain why my first butt joint worked, and the second one made a hinge, instead of a joint. I guess the moral of the story (can a say moral in this Forum?) is that if your resin has been sitting around very long, it's a good idea to give it a little stir before using it.

While I had them on the phone, I also ordered another pump and a gallon of the glass spheres.

Oh yes, also last night, after I had success with fast hardener and the new resin, I mixed up some more and applied it on top of the joint that the epoxy hadn't hardened. When that stuff kicked off, it DID cause the rest of the epoxy to catalyze, as well.

In the end, oldsparkey's fix for a non-hardened epoxy mix WORKED. Thanks, Chuck! :D

Progress report to follow.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Progress report:

Because of my epoxy problems yesterday, I didn't want to glue anything together. But, I did get some work done.

I cut out all the frame parts for a 4 rib version, plus and extra set of side pieces, just in case I decide to put a 5th frame in the center. Uncle John suggested that I take a look at things after putting the 4 frames in place and decide if that 5th frame would be needed. He said it's a good idea, sometimes.

Then I went on to what I thought would be the hardest part of this build, making the stem and stern post. :shock:

I'm using an old, very cheap table saw. One of those light-duty, $150 or so things from Home Depot I got about 10 years ago. The darned thing actually works pretty well.

Made the first two cuts per UJ's plans, after I got over the fact that his drawing shows a table saw that the blade apparently can be angled to the left and the right, mine only angles to the left.

When I was ready to make the second set of cuts, it just didn't look right! I pondered this for a couple of minutes, and took another look at the page from the plans that I printed out.

Boy did I feel like an idgit! :oops:

Reading the plans is one thing, understanding what you read is something else! I was using a 2X4 to make these two parts. The plans clearly state that they are made from a piece of 1 1/2 X 2 inch stock!

My piece was more like 1 1/2 X 3 1/2 !!!

All I had to do was cut both pieces down to that 2 inch size. Even though I'd made the first two cuts in both pieces, this was easy enough to do. The rest of the cuts were just as easy as the first two, except for the last two cuts did require a little eyeballin' and adjusting.

So, the part I feared the most turned out to be a very easy job! :eek:

Now, out I go to see what I can get done today. I thought I'd be much further along than I am, but that's what I get for thinking! It really doesn't matter, though. I don't have to meet a deadline and I'd rather get it right than just done fast.

I will be posting a few pictures, tonight.

Today is my last full day to work on this, as Friday is the first day of my w*rk week. (Three 12 hr. night shifts.) Then I can take it up again on Monday.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Big-time thunder boomers closing in right now! Had to drag the "shop" back inside. This time, nothings getting wet! :)

The bottom pieces have be joined and the epoxy is setting up, now. Because I said I would, here's a few more pics. Before the assembly, I'll lay everything out on the lawn for a good "before" picture.

first up, the glass cloth butt joint that had problems with the epoxy not wanting to "kick off." It finally did, but it has about 4 times the epoxy it was supposed to have. And from some wrinkles in the plastic, I'll be doing a bit of sanding to smooth it out.

PBuild004.jpg


Next, I could only get a "conditional" approval from the shop foreman for this joint! The foreman's name is Peanut, by the way. Seems to think I'm her Mom, and her best friend is an Australian Shepard by the name of Gracie Barksalot.

PBuild005.jpg


Below is a pic of my stack of frame side pieces on the left, frame bottom pieces on the right, and the stem & stern post in the middle, along with one of the trimmed-off end pieces of the stem.
PBuild008.jpg


Last, for today, anyway, a close-up shot of that trimmed off end of the stem post. This part turned out not to be the difficult task I'd imagined.

PBuild009.jpg


Later!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL
 

FlaMike

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
624
2
Spring Hill, FL
www.ptponds.com
Peanut is pretty good about staying out of stuff like that. But every time I go to lay something down, she seems to be laying right where I want to put it. Pretty talented cat.

I was able to get the glass tape butt joint done on the two bottom panel halves, today. Came out pretty good! The epoxy kicked of just like it should and I as able to avoid gluing it to the garage floor.

I'd say my problems with the epoxy not wanting to kick are over. I do need to try stirring the older resin up and running another "function test" to see if that makes it usable. I'd hate to have to toss it, even though it's only about quarter-gallon in that jug. I could get a lot of mileage out of that. But hey, it's only glue.

To give myself some "wiggle room," I made the bottom panel 38 inches wide and a full 16 feet long. Although the joint looks right, I'm not so sure I'd want to pick it up in the middle and carry it. (Not sure why I'd want to, either.) But I no longer have any doubts about this type of construction. Once the bottom panel is epoxied in place across the frames and side panels, the inside seams taped, and the outside of the hull has been glassed, I'm quite confident that it will be more than strong enough.

I've got a bet with myself that I can get the frames assembled, complete with gussets and the frame sides beveled, so I can begin the assembly on Monday, my next day off.

Thanks for being there with the words of encouragement! And to everyone else, as well.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL