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Touring T vs. Touring TV

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,817
31
75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#21
Kayak Jack said:
I have difficulty understanding Ronnie's assertion about where a paddler is seated in relation to the widest part of a boat. Since the entire boat leans and capsizes as a unit, I see very little difference.
Jack.....

Take something that is not symmetrical but Swede ( Or Fish form in shape , if you fished you could understand that shape :lol: ) , the widest part will ship water before the rest which is a lot narrower .... Get the wide area under and then look out.

To exaggerate it ..... a two foot wide area is easier and quicker to ship water when leaned over then a 4 foot wide area. That is just simple every day science. Let me explain it a bit further........
Now if the 4 foot area is attached to the 2 foot area ....... More safety. I am using feet in place of inches to prove a point. :roll:

Any way I think that was the point Ron was trying to make. A larger area behind you will offer more stability then just the normal way we make them or the rest of the folks make the boats.

Paddling along and the wide part goes under , the rest will do the same. Keep that wide part above the water and the rest will follow.

What everyone needs to understand , No One Boat will do everything , Well not at this time and age . might in the years down the road. I sure as heck do not want to paddle a kayak in the swamps or a pirogue out in the ocean. OK... It could be done but the proper boat for the occasion sure makes life a lot easier. That was why we make them or so I thought.... special boats for our special needs on the water. :roll:

Stability is a consideration and there are definitions for it as a general and accepted way of saying it... Unfortunately they do not fit like a shoe for everyone , it is a personal thing as far as I am concerned. What stage is tippy to you might not be to me........
A empty boat can be like walking on ice , add some weight to it and it becomes rock solid , there are just to many variables to that equation , one major one is the paddlers knowledge of the boat. I have one that might have you swimming , to me it is rock solid but I like a lively boat.

"O" ... Speed. :D The less boat in the water the faster it will be , Just that simple. Less resistance from the water the faster you go. I guess that is why racing hulls are really narrow , long and light. My Coho is one fast boat , long and narrow kayak but not as much as the racing ones since I use it for camping. It is my Speed Boat. :wink:

Chuck.
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,411
13
#22
Glad I got into this paddle boating and building to keep life simple. :? :lol: Sure is fun!
Reminds me when my son and I were discussing the difference between a boat and a ship. Pre computer at our house so we looked up the definition of ship in the dictionary. It said a ship is a large boat. OK. We looked up boat. It said it is a small ship. :?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayak#Design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canoe#Shape

beekeeper
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#23
Jack
Ok here goes, take your canoe just for example sit in one end ,it is narrowerer I guarantee you it is not as stable as your rear where you weight is concentrated sitting at the same height in the widest part of the boat. now i have a couple boats that are the same width but one is asymetrical and the other is symetrical there is no comparision in stability between the two ,and this is a fact.
We talked about length being part of how stable a boat is ,I will try to explain better,these are made up numbers but they should make it understandable,if you take a boat 2 ft long and it takes 3 lbs to pull it over with your rope,a 6 ft boat should take 9 lbs,12 ft boat should take 18 lbs. All your side forces stay basically the same per foot so it multiples by the length
I own 2 lakers the 13 ft symetrical, and the Cuda 15 5 asymetrical I have to sit on the floor to paddle the 13 fter, the cuda I have the seat up four inches and it is still less tippy ,now these boats are identical in beam decks seat placement,the only thing that is different is length and the fact that I sit in the widest part of the boat,asymetrical.
Ron
I got to get Jack a little here :D Now Jack these are facts explain to me why it is that way if asymetrical and length arnt factors.Jack get in your canoe sit in the back and roll it,the sit in the middle and roll it I promise sitting in the end will be a whole lot easier to roll
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
12,931
57
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
#24
oldsparkey said:
(1) A larger area behind you will offer more stability... (2) Paddling along and the wide part goes under , the rest will do the same. Keep that wide part above the water and the rest will follow.
(1) Where did you ever get that idea? A wide part - whether in front of us, at our side, or behind us - provides the same resistance to torquing a boat over. I understand the differences between fish and Swede forms. Performance differences between them are more a matter of personal preference than of any solid research.

(2) Right.
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,014
3
South Louisiana
#25
I think this idea of a flat hull having less secondary stability stems from the 32-38" flat bottomed canoes. It you lean one of these over it is stable up to the point that the opposite chine starts to clear the water. At that point, the center of gravity takes a big jump to the lower side and over you go. With a narrower flat hull with medium to large flair, the bulk of the hull stays under water as the craft tips. The sides, in effect , become a secondary "bottom" and resist tipping. I can lean my 25" wide pirogue until water comes over the side with no tendency for overturning. The little 12" pirogue that keith and seedtick lent to Jack for our trip was even more stable than my boat in that scenario, even with a 24" flat bottom.

Jack touched on this. Stability might be confused with predictablity. Stability might be a resistance to tipping, but someone with a bit more paddling experience might prefer to give up a little of that for predictablity. From what I've read, the rounded hull is more lively and responds better to the paddlers movements. If the paddler is up to the task and appreciates that, it's a better design for him. Kind of like cars. A smooth riding Detroit luxury car is probably EASIER to drive than my little sport truck. My truck has lightning quick steering that demands your attention and responds to every bump in the road. BUT, it will leave that big luxury car in it's dust on a winding country road. Different strokes.

Joey
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
12,931
57
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
#26
tx river rat said:
Jack
Ok here goes, take your canoe just for example sit in one end ,it is narrowerer I guarantee you it is not as stable as your rear where you weight is concentrated sitting at the same height in the widest part of the boat. now i have a couple boats that are the same width but one is asymetrical and the other is symetrical there is no comparision in stability between the two ,and this is a fact.
We talked about length being part of how stable a boat is ,I will try to explain better,these are made up numbers but they should make it understandable,if you take a boat 2 ft long and it takes 3 lbs to pull it over with your rope,a 6 ft boat should take 9 lbs,12 ft boat should take 18 lbs. All your side forces stay basically the same per foot so it multiples by the length
I own 2 lakers the 13 ft symetrical, and the Cuda 15 5 asymetrical I have to sit on the floor to paddle the 13 fter, the cuda I have the seat up four inches and it is still less tippy ,now these boats are identical in beam decks seat placement,the only thing that is different is length and the fact that I sit in the widest part of the boat,asymetrical.
Ron
I got to get Jack a little here :D Now Jack these are facts explain to me why it is that way if asymetrical and length arnt factors.Jack get in your canoe sit in the back and roll it,the sit in the middle and roll it I promise sitting in the end will be a whole lot easier to roll
Ron, we are not in disagreement about sitting in a narrow or wide part. Sitting in one end of a canoe, however, it is not balanced. Sit near the middle, where the boat is balanced, and it will make no difference whether the wide part is just behind you (Swede form), in front of you, (fish form), or immediately abreast of you. The hull will still roll as a unit.

You assertion of the roll moment being directly proportional to length is interesting. I've never heard that before, and never read it either. Where did you get that idea?
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#29
length equals A
Width equals B
A+B=C times the square root of A divided by the total from B+S = ?
Some guy in Michigan wrote this formula to check stability in paddle craft.
Run the numbers Jack you will see what I am talking about. :lol:
Ron
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#32
Jd
This and other articles I have read tell me the same thing ,there are so many variables that that is no answer.
The boats I have I can compare in the environment I use them in ,Thats about the only thing you can bank on.
If you read all the post they basically say it is a comprimise of a lot of things.
Ron
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,014
3
South Louisiana
#33
That's right , Ron. No one boat for all situations. Probably no one boat for ANY specific situation. It comes down to the paddler and what works for him. For the man that just wants to fish in a 1 acre farm pond, a 4x8 plywood box would probably work fine.

I'm kind of a "tweaker"-- can't leave well enough alone. One of my buddies tells me " You know what the enemy of "good" is ? "Better."

Did y'all notice on the site, how well the lowly flat bottom shape held up against the "best" rounded bottom? At the 3.5 to 4mph most people paddle, any of those shapes would be fine if the rest of the design addressed other factors like stability, tracking, manueverability, etc.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#34
I totally agree, location sensitive is the words I use for it,the Laker style hulls fit me and what I do.
JD I think we are both a lot alike I keep refining designs wanting a little more speed ease of paddling
and that is why I keep trying new boats,and I just like to build stuff.
Lets see,I want a boat that weighs 20 lbs,cruses at 5 to 6 miles an hour will run shallow tracks good is stable and predictable.
Yea that would be a start.
Ron
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,014
3
South Louisiana
#36
tx river rat said:
Lets see,I want a boat that weighs 20 lbs,cruses at 5 to 6 miles an hour will run shallow tracks good is stable and predictable.
Yea that would be a start.
Ron
A START?! That sounds more like goal than a start.
20 lbs. , eh? ....... 5-6 mph ..........runs shallow............hmmmmmm... Quick, gimme somethin' to draw on. :lol:
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,817
31
75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#37
jdupre' said:
That's right , Ron. No one boat for all situations. Probably no one boat for ANY specific situation. It comes down to the paddler and what works for him. For the man that just wants to fish in a 1 acre farm pond, a 4x8 plywood box would probably work fine.
Jdupre , I am glad someone finally said what you did.
At the penalty of expressing my views and thoughts in this matter and intelligent discussion and that I should not say or express anything or so it was suggested :oops: ......I have to post my unintelligent , primitive views or thoughts. So as a Knuckle Dragging Cave Man here goes nothing .... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Different boats for different uses and all of those uses depends on the person , not the boat. A boat will float and do what it was designed to do. The MAJOR Controlling factor is the person paddling it. The boat is nothing more then a tool to be used for our enjoyment.

For the sake of conversation about boats...... Here are some things I have learned about them in my 65 years of paddling them. Well almost 65 years more like 55 since I was paddling one at the old age of 10. A Old Town wood and canvas canoe. :wink: I am not new to this game by any stretch of the imagination.

Lets consider all the boats as the same length....... :D

1. Flat bottom boats. Pirogues. ( A Middle Width Boat )

A. They are about the middle range between a canoe and a kayak. Faster then a canoe and slower then a kayak but a nice mode of transportation in skinny water and especial over obsticals that would stop other paddle craft. The flat bottom lets you get away with a lot of stuff when paddling. For me it is my 4 wheel drive boat , a go anywhere craft.

More rocker in it makes it easier to turn around on itself , less rocker the higher it will float but will be a little harder to spin around and faster when paddling it. ( More water resistance to it due to the less rocker in it )
Pulling into a campsite the flat bottom will sit nice and solid on the ground so you can get up and walk out of it to the ground.

B. You have to pack carefully and be sort of chosey about what you take , the capacity of them dictates what you can have but mine will take everything I want. Not as much as the wider canoe since the pirogue is narrower then the canoe. But wider then the really narrower kayak.

2 Round bottom boats... Canoes. ( The Wide Boat )

A. The old time favorite load hauler and wilderness explorer of the north. Slower paddling boat then the pirogue or kayak but it will take a ton of stuff , the freight liner or pick up truck of the paddling world. The round bottom draws more water and when pulling into a campsite will be tippy when beached and trying to get out of it.
Also when paddling it will tend to hang up on obsticals under the water a lot more then the flat bottom boat will.
Personal experience.... When paddling the Okefenokee I was in a pirogue and the guys were in canoes... I slid over all the logs in what is called the bone yard , they got hung up.

3. Kayaks...... ( The Skinny Boat)

A. The narrow speed demons of the water world , pack them carefully and you can have a ton of fun. There load capacity is all dependent on how and what you pack them with , getting in or out at times can be a challenge , anyway for me it is. Old age will make things like that a little if not a lot harder to do.
Again a round bottom boat so expect to get the bottom bumped at times when paddling over obsticals , if you are paddling skinny water.

B. A great boat for open water and long distance paddling , they will cover some miles for you at a leisure padding pace. Just one fun boat for open water and I have a ton of fun in mine.

4. The Modified V Bottom Boat or TV. ( No not the TV you watch at home) :roll: .

A. About like the pirogue but more of a straight line paddler since the v act's the same as a keel to help maintain the direction , turning them does take more work and when beaching them they can be tippy. Expect to hit more with the bottom then the flat bottom boats would do.
If you get hung up , just lean it slightly to one of the flat sides and scoot off the obstical.

B. The same load capacity as the pirogue or a small canoe , close to it depending on if it is decked over like a kayak , the height of the deck dictates that or just left open like a canoe is.
C. This is a hybrid of all three boats , combined into one. The rocker , width and length has a lot of control on the action of the craft. This is one versatile boat , depending on how you made it.

To get back to the original thought .........
The ones I have seen on the water and paddled along the side of have sure impressed me , don't be shocked if a little later on I have one. It could of been the paddlers skill level that I enjoyed but there boats sure did what they wanted them to do and did it rather well. :D
Myself I think the 15 x 32 would work the best , 4 more inches for camping gear then in the 15 x 29. That is just my personal thought. If the boat would not fit threw a 32 inch area then I do not need to be there. :lol: I am not looking for speed since I want to see and enjoy where I am paddling and some more goodies with me makes it that much enjoyable. The boat being my backpack that extra width is appreciated.

Again it all boils down to the person operating the boat and there knowledge of that boat , what they expect it to do and how it does it for them. Think of the boat as an extension of your self not something you just get in and use. I don't care which one you paddle as long as you consider it a friend and an/the extension of yourself , then it will do wonders for you. You might flip over in a 8 foot wide boat or you could be rock steady and dance in a 20 inch wide boat , I have no stinking idea of your boating skills , only mine.

For my paddling areas down here and the area I know so well , give me a flat bottom or almost a flat bottom and an open boat for the swamps. :D There is no way I would tell a rapid paddler to use the same boat I like , Hell ... I am not him and we probably don't share the same likes or dislikes , plus I have no idea about his paddling skills , that would be utter stupidity on my part or anyone else to suggest it , the same as telling you what vehicle to drive. DUH.


As far as the what if's..... Only one way to see if it works for you , TRY IT. Everyone can 2nd guess it all day and no one will have the right answer.

OK.... FIRE .... When ready , load , lock and fire .... I am behind a big stump so make sure you have a lot of heavy rounds. :lol:

Chuck.
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,817
31
75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#39
Ron do like me , paddle something that will take you.



All Joking aside ......
I have been picking on Matt and think I can build a 15 x 32 at 35 pounds or in that area , might be less. I will be shooting for less but need the cooler weather down here to do it. Not going to weight it down with seat dripping off me as I build it. :lol:
Ya know me I love a challenge when it comes to building a boat , especially one that I want to use. The lighter they are the higher they float and less energy to paddle.
Did I say I am getting lazy when paddling , especially when a boat would weigh less then my food box. :lol:

Chuck.