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Touring T vs. Touring TV

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,860
36
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Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#41
Ron...

Here are my thoughts at this time......

The 15 x 32 from 1/8th inch wood , 3.25 tight woven glass inside and out . A rub rail inside and outside ... the inside might have some light weight spacers from the red wood I have. The railings might be red wood , not sure at this time.

All fillets would be a 50 , 50 mix of the epoxy and glass bubbles (Less weight ) but adding strength. I have some more ideas but am not sure of them at this time , will have to think about them.

I made the 14 x 30 Sasquatch Canoe ( the one I paddle with you , at 30 pounds ) ....... The seat in it was almost 3 pounds so without that Kain and wood seat the boat would of been 27 pounds.
"O" almost forgot , The Bright sides primer and Teflon paint on the bottom was almost two pounds , more weight then the graphite and epoxy or just leaving it plain. The canoe could of been 25 pounds or 28 with the seat in it.

Use one of my removable pirogue seats in the TV and the extra 4 inches in the wide part ...... I am sure I can get it at the 30 pound area , might be a shade less but no where near 20 pounds. HUMmmmmmmmmm something to think about. Would love 28 pounds. Yep 2 oz cloth on the inside...I think it is feasible.

Dam ... Ya got me thinking again , Dam Texans. Ya owe me a Frito Pie. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#43
Chuck
I think that is well within reach on weight
I used a 4mm bottom 3mm sides and top deck on mine ,6 ounce cloth and poly mine weighed in the high 30s before I put the deck on,so when you starting it? :D
We talk about the reason we build a certain boat ,style are different specs (length width).
I think that is the most important part of building a boat,how you are going to use it.
Current- I got a really good lesson in that recently paddling with Darrel ,he was in his striper Freedom going upstream ,his boat was paddling much easier,as we turned downstream the T-v was the fastest,on flatwater they are pretty close,the perow is harder to paddle upstream than my T-V. On the Brazos there are few places to put in ,they average15 to 18 miles apart. A lot of the time if I just want to fish I may paddle upriver 8 or ten miles,Chuck you know where we camped I paddle up to there several times a year.
Wind- Where I paddle it is always a factor,that is the reason for my full decks and being low profile.
I also fish open lakes that can get rough again full decks help that ,several time I have had waves break over the nose and run up the deck several feet,no problem.
Shallow running- Like Chuck says just lean a little,now the small v on these boats I think are overated.In some of the races
and runs we make in east TX we are continualy jumping logs ,I did as well as the flat bottom yaks did. Gettin in and out
no mater what kind of boat I am in I try to get parrel to the bank to dismount.Get a piec of ply 24 inches wide and put a 3/4 dowel under it now stand on it and rock left and right ,there isnt that much movement. The Brazos has a lot of shallow water even some with a few rocks in it,she had to handle that.
Load-had to be able to handle up to 500 lbs and still perform This is my camping boat,and I eat good sleep good comfortable and it is a fast set up.
To sum up this long ramble ,these were the things that made me build the T-V and chose that design.
Ron
PS I dont consider my self a good paddler ,I just paddle to meet the cicumstances I am in.
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,012
68
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
#45
We have variables in the mix, and it can get difficult to evaluate a boat from afar, reading or listening to another paddler's anecdotal tales and wishes. If we remove variables to as few as possible, it makes comparisons a bit easier. When we look at lateral stability, we have to remove the human paddler. A paddler's actions can modify built in stability, or instability, to a great extent. Winds, currents, mud, waves, logs, etc. also affect any outcomes.

If a boat were loaded with inert gear, and a simulated paddler that remains upright and dead still all the way over, then the built in stability factor can be isolated and compared from boat to boat. No real paddler would remain upright, but it does provide a fixed standard for comparison. Further, if the boat had a vertical lever so that, while in a test tank, you can put a spring scale on it to turn the boat over and record the force required, this could isolate the lateral stability factor of a hull and give useful data for comparison. That is a way to isolate out the effect of a paddler. As I mentioned earlier, Sea Kayaker Magazine publishes such results.

Without such standardized data for boats we're discussing here, we're almost spitting into the wind. The stories mean a lot to the individual teller, and may offer some enlightenment to others, but all results are so tempered by each of us as human beings that hard data is difficult to winnow out. But, the stories are interesting.
 
Likes: FrankAS

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,012
68
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
#47
He said that talking about boats is a lot like talking about hunting rifles and telling tales of long shots and clean kills. without hard, lab data to tell things like muzzle velocity, bullet drop, ft/lbs of energy remaining, and ft/lbs of energy absorbed by the target, they're pretty much just stories. Interesting, but just stories. He also suggested a way to get reliable data.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#48
You know Jack I am like JD You sort of have to prove things to me,figures dont always tell the whole tale, a little case in point. You mentioned guns I bought a Remington 7mm magnum ,I reload so i could spout the drop tables ballistic coefficient muzzle volicity foot pounds of energy,had all the relevent fact according to the gun guys,only problem was I would shoot a deer and then he would run a hundred yards.Well my ole red neck engineering kicked in, so I worked out a load that was slower lighter bullet less foot lbs of energy and I have never had a deer take a step with this load. now according to the gurus my own load was sub standard but after shooting both and taking about 40 deer with that load the stats just didnt hold up.
After paddling two boats that are basically the same with the exception of being asymmetrical the stats just dont matter I know which one is the most stable.
Ron
Stats have one fault if one thing gets left out it blows the whole deal,like the above rifle load on paper it looked good but in real life the bullet was to heavy and it blew thru losing all the knock down power my load blew up and stayed inside so the deer took every foot lb of energy that load had.
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,437
13
#49
jdupre' said:
This is a handy site.http://www.greenval.com/shape_part1.html

Check out "figure 3".
After reading this, seedtick's advice to me, "Build it out of cheap wood and if you don't like it give it away or turn it into firewood." seems to be right on target. The information seems to say how each factor may work and effect the performance, but every thing is a compromise, or trade off. The builder must choose what's best for his boat. This is good information to help make those choices. Thanks for sharing it.

Ron
Thank you for the term "location sensitive". A very accurate way of saying most of the requirements needed. I bet most of the boats built by posters on this site would work well in most locations. Some extreme locations would require extreme designs.

Chuck
You answered one of my questions befor I asked it. For me, an inexperienced paddler, your assessment of the three basic boats we paddle helps me understand their features. Location sensitive and the intended use determined their development. Thanks for the learned opinion and common sense explanations.

beekeeper
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,437
13
#50
tx river rat said:
You know Jack I am like JD You sort of have to prove things to me,.....
After paddling two boats that are basically the same with the exception of being asymmetrical the stats just dont matter I know which one is the most stable.
Ron

You guy's going too fast for me. I thought we were paddling not hunting? :lol: Any way I got lost in all this information. :? Ron which form is most stable?

beekeeper
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#51
Jack and I like to pick on each other,its all in good fun.
In my redneck opinion asymmetrical swede form is the most stable.
Now I have to say this is below the Mason Dixon line might be different in Michigan
:D
Ron
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#52
Beekeeper
You hit it dead on the head of the nail, you build for your own personal needs and wants,to fit your usage.
So far I have been extremely lucky ,seems like every boat I build has gotten better to fill list of things I want.
I am sure one of these days I will build a total flop and when I do you will hear me tell it on myself. and then I will have a viking funeral for it.
The kind of conversation in this thread is really loaded with information and ideals and the banter makes it fun.
Ron
I figure it is going to take about 5 boats to fill my location sensitive needs,oops should have said 5 more
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,860
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Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#53
beekeeper said:
You guy's going too fast for me. I thought we were paddling not hunting? :lol: Any way I got lost in all this information. :? Ron which form is most stable?

beekeeper
beekeeper ...
Thanks for getting us back on the subject matter , as you might of noticed most of the gun chatter is missing since this is the BOAT SECTION for serious questions about them , the answers should be the same.

Chuck.
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,012
68
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
#54
tx river rat said:
Jack and I like to pick on each other,its all in good fun. In my redneck opinion asymmetrical swede form is the most stable...
Ever since Ronnie got us lost on the Brazos River, well... And in Texas, paddling a Swede form boat is considered international relations. :wink:

Ronnie, I'd paddle and camp with you again any time. Come on up to Michigan and see some clear rivers - without snakes.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
#55
Got to thinking about the v bottom,verses a flat bottom.Here is what I came up with. a flat bottom normally has a 2 inch rocker when you start hitting the compression point you have a straight surface that tries to make a wave as wide as the bottom , with a v bottom you split that wave into two segments and with the slope of the bottom it allows the water to slide of both sides.
Did I explain that where it is clear as mud
Ron
 

jdupre'

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2007
2,015
3
South Louisiana
#56
Never thought about it that way. Makes perfect sense. A flat bottom wants to either climb up over the water or push it out of the way. A V hull parts the water in half and each side is pushed laterally which I suspect would take less force. Ron, I say we go with this explanation until someone tells us different. :mrgreen:
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
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Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#57
A pointed flat bottom ( Pirogue ) will have the tendency to push more water then a slight V bottom. The slight v bottom will direct the water to the sides , not along under it like a flat bottom will. A round bottom will slip threw the water easier then the other two with less resistance trying to hold it back.

It is called the wet surface of the boat and how much of it is offering resistance to the medium it is moving threw. The less resistance the easier to move the item.

Not taking into consideration the width , length or any of the rest of the factors , such as the depth the item needs to float in or the paddlers skill. Those are just understood. A person paddling a flat bottomed Jon Boat will be a lot slower then someone in a pirogu with the flat bottom , a kayak with a long narrow rounded bottom will be the speed demon.
A empty boat , no matter which one will move easier then a loaded one for camping. The loaded one will keep coasting further then the empty one thanks to something called ... inertia. ( a object in motion wants to stay in motion)

Different boats for different strokes , so to say. If you are pushing a bow wave then you are really paddling to dang hard and wasting energy , slow down and smell the flowers. :lol:

Chuck.
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,860
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75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
#58
Something all of us do and no one has made the connection to or with it.

We take the paddle , put the flat side in the water and pull back on it , the resistance from the water against the paddle moves us forward , the degree the paddle is turned dictates the direction the boat will turn.

Take the same paddle and try using it with the narrow part of the blade in the water for the forward stroke .... nothing and a lot easier to move threw the water and does nothing for us.

Resistance verses energy to make a boat move , the same with the boat , more resistance the more energy to make it move. It has always been proven to move a flat object it takes more energy to do that then a non flat object. Now at the speeds we paddle it is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Which is the best for you an Apple or an Orange. :wink:

Chuck.
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,437
13
#59
jdupre' said:
Never thought about it that way. Makes perfect sense. A flat bottom wants to either climb up over the water or push it out of the way. A V hull parts the water in half and each side is pushed laterally which I suspect would take less force. Ron, I say we go with this explanation until someone tells us different. :mrgreen:
Piper's new pirogue may add a twist to this. If I remember correctly it has both, a Vee and a flat bottom.

beekeeper