I agree, that pic needs to disappear. If my Daughter sees it I surely will be painting her laker like it......not gonna happen
Easiest build
- Thread starter Bently
- Start date
G'day Bentley and welcome aboard mate.
I built the prototype Laker and also a TV for a friend.
I have paddled both and performance wise there is just no comparison between the TV and Laker.
TV is a superb boat in every aspect but she still is a pirogue, albiet a very flash one with increased load capacity and stability over Laker.
Laker will walk away from TV in any conditions. (and most other rec kayaks too) Slighty less stable than TV but oh so much easier to build, faster and more maneuverable to paddle. she is a paddlers boat. I love my Laker. There are two of them in my shed and all who paddle either of them - want them.
I would argue that bang for buck, Laker is the best kayak in Matt's impressive stable for the first time kayak builder and worthy of serious consideration for any kayak builder. I have paddled mine in surf, white water and significant flat water touring and if I could only build one kayak, Laker would be my boat of choice.
I built the prototype Laker and also a TV for a friend.
I have paddled both and performance wise there is just no comparison between the TV and Laker.
TV is a superb boat in every aspect but she still is a pirogue, albiet a very flash one with increased load capacity and stability over Laker.
Laker will walk away from TV in any conditions. (and most other rec kayaks too) Slighty less stable than TV but oh so much easier to build, faster and more maneuverable to paddle. she is a paddlers boat. I love my Laker. There are two of them in my shed and all who paddle either of them - want them.
I would argue that bang for buck, Laker is the best kayak in Matt's impressive stable for the first time kayak builder and worthy of serious consideration for any kayak builder. I have paddled mine in surf, white water and significant flat water touring and if I could only build one kayak, Laker would be my boat of choice.
Thanks Mick and G'day back at cha! This is the kinda response i've been looking for. A no b.s. opinion that answers all my questions. Even my fiance was impressed with your response. That clears it up. The laker it is. I'll be placing my order with Matt soon. The pirogue is almost done. And not looking to bad if I do say so myself. Its coming along good. Im surprising myself. Uncle Johns kit is so easy and straight forward. Thanks again Mick.
I love my Laker too but given my size I wish I hadn't put in the seat as supplied in Matt's plans , I'm 6'1" and a bit heavier than Mick and having the ability to put in a padded seat about a inch lover would have improved stability for me a great deal , my wife is 5'3" and she finds the standard seat with a two inch cushion fine , a mate of mine who is 5'6" and skinny [ the reverse of me ] has no problem either , so if your going to build a laker and are built more on the large economy size like me have a think about the seating before you epoxy it into place
David
David
Bentley,
I am 6 feet tall and 200 pounds (90kgs) and the seat as designed is perfect for me. I built the Laker 13 and am probably at or near the upper weight range for this boat. Have a think about Laker 14 or 15 if you are around my size or bigger.
as in all kayaks, the seat needs to be as low as comfortably possible for stability. Just enough height to keep you bum out of water.
I am 6 feet tall and 200 pounds (90kgs) and the seat as designed is perfect for me. I built the Laker 13 and am probably at or near the upper weight range for this boat. Have a think about Laker 14 or 15 if you are around my size or bigger.
as in all kayaks, the seat needs to be as low as comfortably possible for stability. Just enough height to keep you bum out of water.
Although the lines between canoe and kayak are blurred, one of the standard points of difference in definition was seat height. Fairly standard, in boats I've seen and read about, was for the bottom of a paddler's butt to be seated below the water line.
I have the Laker 14 and if the seat was a inch lower it would be perfect , I'm only a inch taller than Mick but until recently I was 48 lb heavier [ I've recently lost weight and now I'm only 30 lb heavier than him ] so if your a fat boy like me then make the seat lower
David
David
I agree with Mick on being at the top end of the capacity of the laker 13, I am 6 ft and 225 .
First let me make this extremely apparent ,Mick has my utmost respect. But I have to disagree with him
on a couple things,first the T-V is the same design as the Laker just 2 inches wider,not to be confused with the touring perow T. The T-v Has a v bottom just like the Laker, but is asymmetrical and has tumbleholmes and 2 inches wider
I have about 400 miles on the T-V in all kind of conditions,fast water rapids high winds,and carring my 225 and another 250 in cargo,paddling upstream into fast currents . The Laker has about a hundred miles on her in the same type of water
I find the speed pretty close maneuverability in fast water is better with the T-V with my weight. comfort ,there is no comparision ,my seat is 9 inches above the floor and is still more stable than the Laker 13.
If you want a fast boat that is a lot more stable,and a lot faster than the 13 look at the Laker 15-5 aka CUDA. I have put that boat through the wringer and she is a performer but a lot more well mannered than the Laker 13.
This is a great preformer
Mick again this is said with the greatest respect for your openion, and maybe it is just the water we paddle that makes the difference.
Respectfuly
Ron
Every boat is a compromise ,I agree with Mick the laker is the easiest to build, and I will probably cause a stink here but I think the extra hour or two it takes to build an asymetrical hull is well worth it in speed stability tracking.
And the belief her in is the higher you sit and still have decent stability the more power you can transfer to the paddle.
Ok I will shut up now.
First let me make this extremely apparent ,Mick has my utmost respect. But I have to disagree with him
on a couple things,first the T-V is the same design as the Laker just 2 inches wider,not to be confused with the touring perow T. The T-v Has a v bottom just like the Laker, but is asymmetrical and has tumbleholmes and 2 inches wider
I have about 400 miles on the T-V in all kind of conditions,fast water rapids high winds,and carring my 225 and another 250 in cargo,paddling upstream into fast currents . The Laker has about a hundred miles on her in the same type of water
I find the speed pretty close maneuverability in fast water is better with the T-V with my weight. comfort ,there is no comparision ,my seat is 9 inches above the floor and is still more stable than the Laker 13.
If you want a fast boat that is a lot more stable,and a lot faster than the 13 look at the Laker 15-5 aka CUDA. I have put that boat through the wringer and she is a performer but a lot more well mannered than the Laker 13.
This is a great preformer
Mick again this is said with the greatest respect for your openion, and maybe it is just the water we paddle that makes the difference.
Respectfuly
Ron
Every boat is a compromise ,I agree with Mick the laker is the easiest to build, and I will probably cause a stink here but I think the extra hour or two it takes to build an asymetrical hull is well worth it in speed stability tracking.
And the belief her in is the higher you sit and still have decent stability the more power you can transfer to the paddle.
Ok I will shut up now.
Damn this is getting good. Wait let me get my popcorn. Seriously though if I lean toward more of a bay boat. Something with rough water capability how would the cape fear or sabolo size up? Or the larger wadefish? Since fishing may end up being it's primary use.
That's an interesting supposition, Ron. Where did you come by that? What's the geometry of that? Paddle closer to vertical as apposed to more horizontal? Paddle in the water closer to the boat?tx river rat said:
Jack
That came from some of the top marathon racers here in Texas.
If you want to see how this work ,sit in a chair ,reach forward pull a weight toward you rotating your torso as you pull ,now do the same thing laying in a reclining position ,you go to pulling more with your arms than your body ,its harder to use your torso Are just sit in a chair and twist from the waist up ,now sit on the floor and try to do the same thing.
Ron
If after a days paddling your arms and shoulder are what is the most fatigued ,you are not paddling correctly ,your ribs and sides should be where you are getting the most power so they should be the most fatigued.
These guys are machines ,one friend of mine did 100 miles in 16 .4 hours and he is 60.
That came from some of the top marathon racers here in Texas.
If you want to see how this work ,sit in a chair ,reach forward pull a weight toward you rotating your torso as you pull ,now do the same thing laying in a reclining position ,you go to pulling more with your arms than your body ,its harder to use your torso Are just sit in a chair and twist from the waist up ,now sit on the floor and try to do the same thing.
Ron
If after a days paddling your arms and shoulder are what is the most fatigued ,you are not paddling correctly ,your ribs and sides should be where you are getting the most power so they should be the most fatigued.
These guys are machines ,one friend of mine did 100 miles in 16 .4 hours and he is 60.
Personally the way I use a yak ,I dont like the sit on tops and the two boats you mentioned I haven't built or paddled so I cant express a legitimate opion of them
Ron
Ron
Kayak Jack said:
Rone, First up mate, your points are well thought out and well made and I agree with them to a degree. I was merely trying to add my thoughts to the original question posed here. I would liken the comparion between the two boats (Laker and TV) to that between a pick up truck and a small SUV,
Your Cuda is a different boat again. Desigened for speed, glide and performance. A beautiful kayak indeed.
Bentley mate, I fish from my Laker in quiet skinny water and love it a lot for this. It is not designed or intended for use as a bay boat, but more a play or light touring kayak in flat water. It is a bonus that the hull design makes it a reasonably capable performer in small surf and white water.
TV will be a superior vessel as a fishing or bay boat. Likewise, I suspect Cape Fear will be better again.but more complex in build. A lot depends on how much work you are prepared to put into your build. I built the prototype Okwata as an upgrade to my Laker. Okwata is a superior boat to either Laker or TV (in my opinion)
but is a significantly more complex and challenging build. It is a true bay kayak and I would make the call also as a very capable sea kayak.I use this boat more than all my others combined. She may not be quite as fast as Rons Cuda but where she really shines, is her ability to handle the rough stuff in semi-open water and absolute silence when stalking the flats and shallows, sight fishing for some of our more serious and very flighty sport fish.
If build complexity does not bother you and you are really looking for the best bossible bay fishing boat, have a look at the Southwind series, in particular the Southwind 15-30. As a general purpose boat, capable of handling just about anything, I think this boat has no peer. I built the SW 17.9 for a very specific purpose and in this she shines, but she is a little long for my day to day needs and hence does not get used nearly as much as she deserves.
Re the sit on top style, I don't think their percieved benefiets warrrants the complexity of their build
Interesting, the way this topic is panning out. Differences of opinion make for the best debate. Fortunately this forum tends to attract, and keep people that can disagree on a subject yet remain civilised - unlike so many other net forums- Congratulations to all participants for that mercy.
I have two opinions based on recent posts on this topic. They relate to seat height, and SOT Vs SIK. My opinions bear little weight of either science or experience. They just have a good vibe... to me :lol:
First I'd have to side with those that prefer a lower seating position. This is based on paddling performance Not a bit of paddling a bit of fishing a bit of wandering around on the water. The first article I ever read when I became interested in paddling stated that the fundamental error most people make about paddling regards the act of pulling against a paddle. We are not trying to pull a weight/paddle towards us when paddling, rather we are pushing the kayak with us inside it towards the paddle/weight. Contrarily we should be using legs and core trunk muscles more than our arms to push against and propel the boat forward. Overly bent legs will not help as much. Yes good body rotation helps use our arms to place the paddle in, and maintain the optimum position of the paddle in relation to the kayak moving up to and past the paddle. The arms are just a link. This is how I think when I am paddling, and I find that I can generate more power over a longer period of time than when I lose focus and arm-paddle. Might well be that no one agrees with that, it just happens to work for me.
My shoulders and trunk ache after a good serious paddle but nothing like my poor legs :? 90% of the time I'm going fishing so I don't think it matters as much as comfort. Comfort is what its all about really. None of us should be competitive to the degree that performance should over ride enjoyment. This is very similar to the speed Vs efficiency thing. Who has the fastest boat? The fastest boat should get there first. The most efficient boat is more likely to get there without a heart attack.
SOT Vs SIK. I fish around a few plastic SOT paddlers and I believe the bottom line is, and no they would never admit to it but, they feel a bit insecure about floatation. Hardly surprising though when they talk about the kind/size of seas they often fish in. :mrgreen: Thats nothing a few empty milk bottles (plastic) or a coupla pool noodles couldn't fix in a SIK.
Anyhew. which boat? I can only talk about a Laker. I was just about to order Okwata plans last year when finances went pear shaped. That's on hold for another time. :wink: But since then if I really thought about it, and I have: I do not realy NEED another boat. The Laker is perfect. (I jus' think the Okwata is pretty)
Regards John.
I have two opinions based on recent posts on this topic. They relate to seat height, and SOT Vs SIK. My opinions bear little weight of either science or experience. They just have a good vibe... to me :lol:
First I'd have to side with those that prefer a lower seating position. This is based on paddling performance Not a bit of paddling a bit of fishing a bit of wandering around on the water. The first article I ever read when I became interested in paddling stated that the fundamental error most people make about paddling regards the act of pulling against a paddle. We are not trying to pull a weight/paddle towards us when paddling, rather we are pushing the kayak with us inside it towards the paddle/weight. Contrarily we should be using legs and core trunk muscles more than our arms to push against and propel the boat forward. Overly bent legs will not help as much. Yes good body rotation helps use our arms to place the paddle in, and maintain the optimum position of the paddle in relation to the kayak moving up to and past the paddle. The arms are just a link. This is how I think when I am paddling, and I find that I can generate more power over a longer period of time than when I lose focus and arm-paddle. Might well be that no one agrees with that, it just happens to work for me.
My shoulders and trunk ache after a good serious paddle but nothing like my poor legs :? 90% of the time I'm going fishing so I don't think it matters as much as comfort. Comfort is what its all about really. None of us should be competitive to the degree that performance should over ride enjoyment. This is very similar to the speed Vs efficiency thing. Who has the fastest boat? The fastest boat should get there first. The most efficient boat is more likely to get there without a heart attack.
SOT Vs SIK. I fish around a few plastic SOT paddlers and I believe the bottom line is, and no they would never admit to it but, they feel a bit insecure about floatation. Hardly surprising though when they talk about the kind/size of seas they often fish in. :mrgreen: Thats nothing a few empty milk bottles (plastic) or a coupla pool noodles couldn't fix in a SIK.
Anyhew. which boat? I can only talk about a Laker. I was just about to order Okwata plans last year when finances went pear shaped. That's on hold for another time. :wink: But since then if I really thought about it, and I have: I do not realy NEED another boat. The Laker is perfect. (I jus' think the Okwata is pretty)
Regards John.
G'day John
Thanks for the kind words mate.
Your Laker is perfect for the places you fish and if the pastic SOT barge mob stopped for a moment to actually think about what they were doing, they would realize the same thing.
They look at our wooden kayaks with scorn, untill they see us oh so cassually lift one off the roof of our cars unassisted, lazily walk to the water with boat on one shoulder, paddle and fishing rod in the other hand and then oh so easily just paddle away from them in the water. All the time, they and their mate are still struggling to lift their pigs of plastic off their cars
My X wifes Laker at 13 feet, came in at a shade under 13 kgs - loaded. 8) 'nuff said
Thanks for the kind words mate.
Your Laker is perfect for the places you fish and if the pastic SOT barge mob stopped for a moment to actually think about what they were doing, they would realize the same thing.
They look at our wooden kayaks with scorn, untill they see us oh so cassually lift one off the roof of our cars unassisted, lazily walk to the water with boat on one shoulder, paddle and fishing rod in the other hand and then oh so easily just paddle away from them in the water. All the time, they and their mate are still struggling to lift their pigs of plastic off their cars
My X wifes Laker at 13 feet, came in at a shade under 13 kgs - loaded. 8) 'nuff said
I have reread this thread several times, and it finally hit me.
Mick paddles bays small river(flatwater) and then the salt water. I think these conditions govern what boat is the best.
I paddle lakes,10 percent of the time ,rivers 90% This presents a whole different set of standards that need to be met.
I went back and spent some time re thinking my thoughts about the Laker 13,and I can see where the different environment could affect her. With my weight she sits pretty deep in the water,so running the shallow rocky fast water
she doesn't shine ,just to much draft to run 3 inches of water ,the T-V with the increased length and width runs much shallower . In the Brazos you get all kind of currents , and they toss the Laker around more than the t-v. Seating is to low for me in the Laker and I get fatigued easily where the T-V higher seating I can paddle for hours and still be comfortable
Now the 15 5 A laker AKA CUDA solves a lot of these problems ,seating about 4 inches high,stability is much improved with the added length Side currents dont effect it near as much, draft is better,the only thing the T-V does better than the Cuda is handle a bigger load.
I want to go back a rephrase a statement I made, for my environment and the river paddling I do in Texas the T-V is the best all around boat I own.
I am not a pro by a long shot,just my beliefs from the guys I paddle around and my own findings playing with a gps and
trying different styles, Seat Highness does help in several ways,one is it gives me a high angle upright paddle stroke close to the side of the boat that I can hold at a constant distance from the side of the boat. this does several things,a straight stoke cuts down on the nose wobble ,improves tracking,also my arms ,torso and legs are driving in as straight a line as I can get.Second thing is comfort I can hold that position longer than I can sitting flat,so I just paddle better,I can put more power to the blade in this position. all these thing I worked out with help from some good paddlers and taking a gps and trying different strokes and different seating heigths . Ok lets talk about inviroment again most of my fishing trips are at least 10 miles with a loaded yak,5 up stream and 5 down. my races are at least 12 miles,up to 25 miles in all kinds of water,portaging over logs running rapids and drops,so again the high seating helps me read the water ahead of me and being able to stay in my comfort zone helps me paddle longer and stronger and get in and out of the boat much easier. Funny thing I had to back of the power I was putting to the paddle and how hard I was kicking with my leggs.
Boats need to fit what you are going to do with that boat.
Matts boats and designs will just about fill any need.
The Oktawa I think is his prettiest yak and a great performer,the ugly duck I just finished is probably the ugliest boat
but the fastest flatwater and downriver boat he has designed,The boats that keep haunting me are the north wind and the southwind, I cant wait to see Darrels strip Northwind and maybe I can get to paddle her.
I am starting an 18 ft A Laker (Cuda) This just might be the boat that outshines the T-V in my stable,she will be set up as a long range river cruiser.
Let me state one more time that Mick is the man on these wood boats . I just paddle different waters.
Ron
Mick paddles bays small river(flatwater) and then the salt water. I think these conditions govern what boat is the best.
I paddle lakes,10 percent of the time ,rivers 90% This presents a whole different set of standards that need to be met.
I went back and spent some time re thinking my thoughts about the Laker 13,and I can see where the different environment could affect her. With my weight she sits pretty deep in the water,so running the shallow rocky fast water
she doesn't shine ,just to much draft to run 3 inches of water ,the T-V with the increased length and width runs much shallower . In the Brazos you get all kind of currents , and they toss the Laker around more than the t-v. Seating is to low for me in the Laker and I get fatigued easily where the T-V higher seating I can paddle for hours and still be comfortable
Now the 15 5 A laker AKA CUDA solves a lot of these problems ,seating about 4 inches high,stability is much improved with the added length Side currents dont effect it near as much, draft is better,the only thing the T-V does better than the Cuda is handle a bigger load.
I want to go back a rephrase a statement I made, for my environment and the river paddling I do in Texas the T-V is the best all around boat I own.
I am not a pro by a long shot,just my beliefs from the guys I paddle around and my own findings playing with a gps and
trying different styles, Seat Highness does help in several ways,one is it gives me a high angle upright paddle stroke close to the side of the boat that I can hold at a constant distance from the side of the boat. this does several things,a straight stoke cuts down on the nose wobble ,improves tracking,also my arms ,torso and legs are driving in as straight a line as I can get.Second thing is comfort I can hold that position longer than I can sitting flat,so I just paddle better,I can put more power to the blade in this position. all these thing I worked out with help from some good paddlers and taking a gps and trying different strokes and different seating heigths . Ok lets talk about inviroment again most of my fishing trips are at least 10 miles with a loaded yak,5 up stream and 5 down. my races are at least 12 miles,up to 25 miles in all kinds of water,portaging over logs running rapids and drops,so again the high seating helps me read the water ahead of me and being able to stay in my comfort zone helps me paddle longer and stronger and get in and out of the boat much easier. Funny thing I had to back of the power I was putting to the paddle and how hard I was kicking with my leggs.
Boats need to fit what you are going to do with that boat.
Matts boats and designs will just about fill any need.
The Oktawa I think is his prettiest yak and a great performer,the ugly duck I just finished is probably the ugliest boat
but the fastest flatwater and downriver boat he has designed,The boats that keep haunting me are the north wind and the southwind, I cant wait to see Darrels strip Northwind and maybe I can get to paddle her.
I am starting an 18 ft A Laker (Cuda) This just might be the boat that outshines the T-V in my stable,she will be set up as a long range river cruiser.
Let me state one more time that Mick is the man on these wood boats . I just paddle different waters.
Ron
Here is a little clip,notice how high he is sitting and how much bend he has in his knees ,this is in a K 1 unstable as heck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZoSdskt ... re=related
Ron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZoSdskt ... re=related
Ron
Lots of feedback here. Good conversation. Here's my experience, and what I've learned from both training and experience.
I agree with Ron when he states that you have to turn your torso for a paddle stroke. That uses your back muscles instead of arm muscles. I don't agree that seating height will improve a paddler's stroke or vary the fatigue. Here's why.
When seated low in a kayak, there is much more to the fit than Ron has experienced. A kayak is fitted to the paddler like a pair of pants. First, width of the cockpit is adjusted with hip pads so that it is a snug, not tight, fit. A standard test of "snug" is, can you slide you fingers in and back out easily between your hip and the pad? That provides a snug fit so that hip thrusts to the side will affect control of the boat.
Another fit is foot pad placement. These can be too near or too far, and too wide or close together. Distance out is usually the first adjustment. A paddler's knees should be flexed up under the decks of his kayak, and his feet should rest nicely on the pads, contacting the ball of his feet. His feet should not be bent back uncomfortably, neither should he have to stretch to get firm contact. Specially shaped (cupped) pads are on the under side of the deck to both cushion and lock in the knees. This provides lateral control of the hull to initiate a roll, control about the longitudinal axis to dampen roll effect of wind and wave, and a great tactile feedback to the paddle. I've had the knee pads (also thigh braces) too far apart and it positioned my knees too far apart. This placed my hip joints too wide and a nerve was pinched somewhere. My legs would go numb.
With contact at the bottom of his butt, back, sides of hips, feet, and knees the paddler senses every twitch and move of his boat, and can instinctively move to add contol inputs for a smoother ride. An experienced kayaker will normally remain upright in his cockpit, while his boat can roll, pitch, and yaw underneath him. He can both feel his boat's movement, and move to add control inputs.
Now, paddling. We're basically talking only a forward stroke here; the power stroke that propels us forward and makes up the large majority of our strokes. I'm using, as an example here, a double ended kayak paddle, gripped with hands at about shoulder width. Paddle loom is straight, not cranked, and blades can be feathered or not, according to paddler's preference.
In a kayak cockpit that fits as I've described above, the paddler should NOT be paddling by flexing his arms. In fact, his elbows will flex only less than 5 degrees. (It is entirely possible to bend the elbows to a comfortable position and weld them there, never to move during the power strokes. But, a very slight flex is more comfortable in practice.) He turns to, say, his left, lowers the blade into the water up near his toes, and swings (rotates) his torso until the blade is about even with his hips. All this time, his elbows have not changed angle, except minimally, say, that 5 degrees I spoke of. Now, he rocks his arms to lower the right end of his paddle into the water up near his toes, while raising the left blade clear of the water, and does the power stroke on the right side back to even with his hip. His shoulders are parallel to the paddle at all times. He does NOT windmill his arms to paddle.
ALSO, while each stroke is being powered by the back muscles as the shoulders rotate, he is pushing against the foot pads with one of his legs. This is a part of the stroke with which, I think, Ron is unfamiliar. As you pull the left blade back, you are simultaneously pushing forward with your left foot and right arm. And, as you pull the right blade back, you are simultaneously pushing forward with your right foot and left arm.This does several thing for the paddle. Primarily, he does not have to lean forward with the effort of reaction to his paddle stroke. That tires back muscles prematurely. A forward leg thrust will transmit the power of the forward stroke to the boat. It also flexes the leg muscles to keep blood flowing and combat numbness in legs, butt, and back.
If a paddler only sits with butt contact, he has to strain forward from the waist to resist the force of his stroke. With a well fitted back rest, foot pads, and knee pads up under the deck, he has much more contact with his boat, and is less fatigued as a result. It is easy to raise the paddle from a horizontal position to nearly vertical to get a more forward component to the force of the stroke, but not necessary.
I agree with Ron when he states that you have to turn your torso for a paddle stroke. That uses your back muscles instead of arm muscles. I don't agree that seating height will improve a paddler's stroke or vary the fatigue. Here's why.
When seated low in a kayak, there is much more to the fit than Ron has experienced. A kayak is fitted to the paddler like a pair of pants. First, width of the cockpit is adjusted with hip pads so that it is a snug, not tight, fit. A standard test of "snug" is, can you slide you fingers in and back out easily between your hip and the pad? That provides a snug fit so that hip thrusts to the side will affect control of the boat.
Another fit is foot pad placement. These can be too near or too far, and too wide or close together. Distance out is usually the first adjustment. A paddler's knees should be flexed up under the decks of his kayak, and his feet should rest nicely on the pads, contacting the ball of his feet. His feet should not be bent back uncomfortably, neither should he have to stretch to get firm contact. Specially shaped (cupped) pads are on the under side of the deck to both cushion and lock in the knees. This provides lateral control of the hull to initiate a roll, control about the longitudinal axis to dampen roll effect of wind and wave, and a great tactile feedback to the paddle. I've had the knee pads (also thigh braces) too far apart and it positioned my knees too far apart. This placed my hip joints too wide and a nerve was pinched somewhere. My legs would go numb.
With contact at the bottom of his butt, back, sides of hips, feet, and knees the paddler senses every twitch and move of his boat, and can instinctively move to add contol inputs for a smoother ride. An experienced kayaker will normally remain upright in his cockpit, while his boat can roll, pitch, and yaw underneath him. He can both feel his boat's movement, and move to add control inputs.
Now, paddling. We're basically talking only a forward stroke here; the power stroke that propels us forward and makes up the large majority of our strokes. I'm using, as an example here, a double ended kayak paddle, gripped with hands at about shoulder width. Paddle loom is straight, not cranked, and blades can be feathered or not, according to paddler's preference.
In a kayak cockpit that fits as I've described above, the paddler should NOT be paddling by flexing his arms. In fact, his elbows will flex only less than 5 degrees. (It is entirely possible to bend the elbows to a comfortable position and weld them there, never to move during the power strokes. But, a very slight flex is more comfortable in practice.) He turns to, say, his left, lowers the blade into the water up near his toes, and swings (rotates) his torso until the blade is about even with his hips. All this time, his elbows have not changed angle, except minimally, say, that 5 degrees I spoke of. Now, he rocks his arms to lower the right end of his paddle into the water up near his toes, while raising the left blade clear of the water, and does the power stroke on the right side back to even with his hip. His shoulders are parallel to the paddle at all times. He does NOT windmill his arms to paddle.
ALSO, while each stroke is being powered by the back muscles as the shoulders rotate, he is pushing against the foot pads with one of his legs. This is a part of the stroke with which, I think, Ron is unfamiliar. As you pull the left blade back, you are simultaneously pushing forward with your left foot and right arm. And, as you pull the right blade back, you are simultaneously pushing forward with your right foot and left arm.This does several thing for the paddle. Primarily, he does not have to lean forward with the effort of reaction to his paddle stroke. That tires back muscles prematurely. A forward leg thrust will transmit the power of the forward stroke to the boat. It also flexes the leg muscles to keep blood flowing and combat numbness in legs, butt, and back.
If a paddler only sits with butt contact, he has to strain forward from the waist to resist the force of his stroke. With a well fitted back rest, foot pads, and knee pads up under the deck, he has much more contact with his boat, and is less fatigued as a result. It is easy to raise the paddle from a horizontal position to nearly vertical to get a more forward component to the force of the stroke, but not necessary.
Oh boy I get to play with Jack LOL
Jack there is some subtle things in my yaks you have missed,one my bulk head is set in the front of the cockpit to use as a foot rest that I can kick from,so I am familiar with the leg thrust. As mentioned in the above post I was kicking to hard and overpowering my paddle and I had to ease off. second thing my cockpits have been resized to where I can lock my knees under them and are padded. In a sea kayak I can see the fit like a glove . In a river I am not going to do an eskimo roll,I want to come out of the boat for several reasons,one in shallow water its hard on the head and dangerous,most of the time the rivers I paddle arn't over a hundred yard wide,so I can go to the bank and remount are do a deep water reentry
plus in portages ease of exit and reentry are very important.A tight fitting cockpit would kill you on a race like the Neches where you are in and out of the boat 10 to twenty times in a race.
Backrest,nope non ,look at the above clips and any video on the racing kayaks no backrest are used , they inhibit the twist of your torso, after a 20 miles race your back would be raw.
I basically agree with you on the stroke up to a point, you cannot use an upright stroke with out bending your elbow as you clear the water with the paddle, as you dip the blade the other arm and shoulder extend coupled with the leg thrust to give power to the stroke.
Jack I think what you are talking about came from sea kayaks, and if I had to be capable of a roll yea I would agree with you,your buddy Verlen didn't have much of what you talk about in his Sea Winds and they were touring yaks.
Ok back to seat measurement ,I promise you the guys in the K 1 dont set there seats that high for looks,its for power and
efficiency. Go to you tube are a racing site and look at how the cockpits are built and high they sit they claim you have to be born with the nack to paddle one and if you stop they will roll
My boats are river racers and trippers so some of the same criteria do not mix with the set up for sea yaks
Ron
One other thing, you can have a set forward stroke in deep water in shallow water it is completely different ,low paddle mainly arm paddling and a fast rhythm, or try one of the new wing paddles they go where they want to on a foreward stroke.
Jack there is some subtle things in my yaks you have missed,one my bulk head is set in the front of the cockpit to use as a foot rest that I can kick from,so I am familiar with the leg thrust. As mentioned in the above post I was kicking to hard and overpowering my paddle and I had to ease off. second thing my cockpits have been resized to where I can lock my knees under them and are padded. In a sea kayak I can see the fit like a glove . In a river I am not going to do an eskimo roll,I want to come out of the boat for several reasons,one in shallow water its hard on the head and dangerous,most of the time the rivers I paddle arn't over a hundred yard wide,so I can go to the bank and remount are do a deep water reentry
plus in portages ease of exit and reentry are very important.A tight fitting cockpit would kill you on a race like the Neches where you are in and out of the boat 10 to twenty times in a race.
Backrest,nope non ,look at the above clips and any video on the racing kayaks no backrest are used , they inhibit the twist of your torso, after a 20 miles race your back would be raw.
I basically agree with you on the stroke up to a point, you cannot use an upright stroke with out bending your elbow as you clear the water with the paddle, as you dip the blade the other arm and shoulder extend coupled with the leg thrust to give power to the stroke.
Jack I think what you are talking about came from sea kayaks, and if I had to be capable of a roll yea I would agree with you,your buddy Verlen didn't have much of what you talk about in his Sea Winds and they were touring yaks.
Ok back to seat measurement ,I promise you the guys in the K 1 dont set there seats that high for looks,its for power and
efficiency. Go to you tube are a racing site and look at how the cockpits are built and high they sit they claim you have to be born with the nack to paddle one and if you stop they will roll
My boats are river racers and trippers so some of the same criteria do not mix with the set up for sea yaks
Ron
One other thing, you can have a set forward stroke in deep water in shallow water it is completely different ,low paddle mainly arm paddling and a fast rhythm, or try one of the new wing paddles they go where they want to on a foreward stroke.