Rudders?

[hairymick]

G'day guys,

I have been playing with an idea to build a really simple, retractable rudder for my Southwind out of ply and epoxy.

While strictly speaking, this boat does not need a rudder. She tracks beautifully as she is. a rudder will be of benifiet to me in contolling glide direction while fishing the shallows.

If anybody is interested in the build, I will start a new thread with details and piccies.

 

[cctyer]

I sure am Mick! I love that boat almost as much as you do and that's only because of your wonderful reports on it. So any more additions would be welcome here! As I remember you already installed the hardware needed to accept the lines? Now the fun part making an aquadynamic shape for the rudder. I cant wait to see how it comes out.

I am getting obsessive with this boat thing. :wink:

 

[Kayak Jack]

Definitely. I've washed around this idea in my mind often, usually, as I'm drifting off to sleep.

I'm thinking of making one entirely of wood - including the universal joint upon which the rudder both waggles back and forth, and is raised and lowered. Rudder blades has two features that I've considered. To "roll off or over" obstacles, I've considered a disk that would roll or rotate on an axle. (Think of a rolling coulter on a plow.) The trunnion holding the axle would be hinged to that aforementioned universal joint so it could raise & lower.

Probably, the wide trunnion would present too much resistance to be worth the trouble. And, just one more moving part. (Murphy sez that leak proof tanks do, and moving parts don't.)

To be easier to use, it would be partly or totally "balanced". IE: There would be some rudder AHEAD of the vertical fulcrum point. If I use a rolling disk, it would be 100% balanced with as much area fore of the fulcrum as aft. I'm not sure if that's a great idea or not. Probably a blade or sweep (upside down comma) with, say 40% forward and 60% aft of the fulcrum.

 

[nobucks]

Sure, where were you with your build pics a few months ago, when I could've used them? :lol:

I've been building rudders out of carbon fiber with a foam core for our tandem kayaks, so I'd be interested in seeing how others do it. Looking forward to the pics.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Joel, you are a guy I HAVE to meet eyeball to eyeball.

 

[dawallace45]

Mick

I'm interested , Thinking of putting a rudder on my Mill creek , can't wait to see your pics

David

 

[hairymick]

Thanks guys,

I have only just started marking and cutting and such.

It is not so much a retractable rudder but more a pivoting one. Really low teck and designed to simply lift up and over stumps etc. then automaticaly drop back down into place.

There will be very little in the way of Hydrodynamics to the blade, but I will be able to raise and lower it from the cockpit. The idea is more just a thing to control glide when sneaking into the flats and maybe assist a little when paddling across strong winds.

Will post some piccies soon.

 

[FlaMike]

If your current idea doesn't work out, consider taking it down a notch on the technology scale.

Ever see a trolling motor clamped on the side of a canoe? I have. Guy did it because it was easy and didn't require any modifications to the hull. Not as efficient as one properly mounted on the stern, or bow for that matter, but a side-mount has been done on many a canoe.

What am a saying? Consider a similar mount for a rudder! One that clamps on the side of the boat, with a tiller to steer it, and a simple tilt-up mechanism like found on the average trolling motor.

This should work just about anywhere on the boat, but more than likely, the further aft, the better.

Just a thought. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[bearridge]

Fellas,

The High Sheriff dont allow me on the serius glue sniffin' section, but one Independence Day I wuz bored 'n drove over ta Jasper, Arkansaw where Harold Gordon had a kid take me ta the Steel Creek put in. I shoved off bout 4 p.m. I had the river all ta myownself. I never saw nobody all day.

The next day I fell in with some nice lookin' young gals....I mean, a group frum Little Rock. One fella had ta work in a body shop. He had this ole Grummann that had baby blue paint on one side 'n a trollin' motor jest behind hiz rear seat. When he come upon Chuck's ledge 'n Gray Rock Shoals, he'd tilt the motor up 'n grab hiz paddle. In the flat stretches, the bikini gals all gathered round ta hitch a ride beside hiz trollin' motor.

The Paddlin' Geezers run that same stretch back in April, 2005. [With the High Sheriff along, the water level wuz WAY higher.] http://www.neilbank.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1717
http://www.neilbank.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1712

This fella showed me anuther way ta paddle. He also had a bottle of Crown Royal (the law dont allow glass on the river no more). Dont ya jest love the way them body shop boys paddle? :roll: :roll:

regards
bearridge

ps The guy with the Crown Royal looked jest like Jackie Earle Haley who wuz in the movie "Breakin' Away"....bout the Indiana poor kids who rode bikes 'n beat the college boys. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078902/ He wuz also in the "Bad News Bears"....the loner who slapped the ball outta the park while smokin' a cigarette.

The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home. James Madison

 

[nobucks]

If your current idea doesn't work out, consider taking it down a notch on the technology scale.

Ever see a trolling motor clamped on the side of a canoe? I have. Guy did it because it was easy and didn't require any modifications to the hull. Not as efficient as one properly mounted on the stern, or bow for that matter, but a side-mount has been done on many a canoe.

Sailboats have been doing this for hundreds of years with leeboards, A sideboard which goes on the downwind side of the boat. Here's an article by boat designer Jim Michalak on leeboards:
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/15jul04.htm

This is also essentially what you do when you trail your paddle blade to steer the kayak, or to counteract waves and wind.

 

[FlaMike]

Sailboats have been doing this for hundreds of years with leeboards

Yes, although the primary function of lee boards as far as sailing craft go, is to provide lateral resistance while under sail.

What I was thinking was that a rudder mounted like a side-mount trolling motor, would work just fine for both steering the boat, and to improve it's tracking (here, much like the lee board,) and be able to be raised just like a trolling motor.

But if you want to take another lesson from sail boats, this "side-mount rudder" could also include the same "kick-up" design as found on many small sail boats.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Kayak Jack]

On Duck Works, they have this http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/how ... /index.htm

 

[FlaMike]

:lol: I guess hairymick needs to check this thread before we start talking about drag coefficient and Reynold's numbers! :shock:

Of course if he needs it, I have an airfoil plotting program. . . But I could have sworn he said something about "just a thing to control glide when sneaking into the flats and maybe assist a little when paddling across strong winds."

If his project doesn't live up to our expectations, Kayak Jack can tell him to try again until he gets it right!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[Wannabe]

Mick,
Which ever way you go with the rudder, just remember to adhere to the K.I.S.S principle.
Bob

 

[nobucks]

Right, my point was that you've been proven correct over hundreds of years. A skeg, or a rudder, for that matter, doesn't have to be on the center line to function, it just looks better that way. :lol:

Yes, although the primary function of lee boards as far as sailing craft go, is to provide lateral resistance while under sail.

What I was thinking was that a rudder mounted like a side-mount trolling motor, would work just fine for both steering the boat, and to improve it's tracking (here, much like the lee board,) and be able to be raised just like a trolling motor.

But if you want to take another lesson from sail boats, this "side-mount rudder" could also include the same "kick-up" design as found on many small sail boats.

 

[Kayak Jack]

In Michener's "Chesapeake", he talked about a sailboat with an off center keel. I went straight very well, and sailed better if the wind came from one side versus the other side. I don't remember now, if the wind was supposed to come from near or off side of the feel.

 

[a Bald Cypress]

keel

Ahh Friend Jackus Yackus,

That in truth was a boat built by the Paxmore Boat Yard fer "drudgin arsters" a[ Skipjack ] .

The reason for the offset keel was that the Paxmores NEVER violated the keel. Paxmore Boats never became "hogbacked" as did other boats.

 

[FlaMike]

Looks to me like Mick is doing the smart thing, ignoring all our "high-tech help" and simply building the thing. :lol:

Maybe he needs a class in "Procrastination 101."

a Bald Cypress,

Pray tell, where might I learn more about such boats as you just mentioned? I have an interest in the early sailing craft of Florida, and I suspect they have a lot in common with those in your area, from that same time period.

I've watched the cypress plank-on-frame construction of a Greek sponge boat in Tarpon Springs, what they called the "mother boat," and did a little work myself on an old "hook boat." The latter being more to my interest.

The only other boat from that period that I can find much on is Comm. Perry's Presto class boats. (From the book, The Good Little Ship.)

If you know of any resources on the working boats of Apalachicola, such as their oyster dredges, I'd sure like to know about them!

Rudders?

Oh yes, we were talking about a rudder for hairymick. . . 8)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

[hairymick]

G'day fellers,

Still no piccies sorry.

what I am building is something loosly based on this.

Only making the rudder assembly except the pivot bolts out of ply and epoxy.

The rudder blade is made out of 1/8th ply - fibreglassed both sides. will have to wait and see if it is strong enough. I think it will be.

I have bought a couple of factory foot brace assemblies and will be modifying them to take pivoting rudder control pedals. I think they will work OK.

because I will be paddling this boat in a lot of very shallow water, my idea is to have a set up that just kicks back and up on its own as it bumps over the bottom or snags etc. and then just returns to the vertical when the water is deep enough. This should just about eliminate any chance of accidental breakage. ( I hope)

 

[Kayak Jack]

Mick,

When I get into shallow water, I often have to back out. If you can't lift your rudder, how will you back out of a situation?

Inquiring minds want to know.