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What Works / What Don't

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
13,040
74
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
Adding a paddler adds more variables than can possibly be accounted for here, even under strenuous testing conditions. Testing a boat alone can be done.
Also, talking about a canoe having to be upright to be paddled is misleading. Canadians paddle routinely with the boat canted up 20-40 degrees to one side.
Also, talking about how a kayak waggles when paddled with a double paddle is misleading. That's how they were designed several thousand years ago, and how they are still paddled. When the forward power stroke is done correctly with a kayak paddle, the arms are not fatigued. You use back muscles, not arm muscles to power the paddle.
 
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tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
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Jack
Part of this conversation was about paddling effeincy ,you can take the paddler and chunk him in the lake as far as I am concerned,paddling and doing it well is easier in a boat not to wide. Thats why they go to rowing in a boat that is much wider than a yak

Here we go again ,your throwing oranges at apples this is about sitting in a boat trimed out
with Bee and his gear not to one side standing on your head or sitting on the bow or stern. A little note on the canadian canoe paddlers ,it is great for turning and handling different manuvers but it sure as hell doesnt let that canoe preform speed wise or tracking wise up to what it is capable of.They have to paddle like that the boats to dam wide Plus that is with a single blade not a double again it doesnt pertain to this conversation .
I agree with you about paddling and using your back muscles AND YOUR ARM MUSCLE they should both be tired at the end of the day ,not one but both, but that doesnt have anything to do with what we are talking about.What was being discused was how much more effiecent a stroke close to the side of the boat was compared to a sweeping stroke and how much more strain it put on the muscles and how much harder it was to go straight.
I think it is sort of funny you want the paddler thrown out and the biggest part of your post is about paddling.
Ron
 

mike

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2009
633
1
TEXAS!
The discussion is about the efficiency of the vessel, not the paddler. Side by side, what HULL DESIGN is the most efficient? HULL DESIGN not paddler. The paddler should not enter the equation.

[shakes head in bewilderment]

Mike

[/shakes head]
 
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tx river rat

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Feb 23, 2007
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I have to disagree on that Mike, Bee is wanting to improve his boat ,that is a package that is geared to what he wants out of a boat, you can take the paddler out of the boat but being able to paddle easily and get performance out of a hull is part of the scenerio. If you can just put half your paddling thrust into paddling you just killed any speed in that design. The design of the hull can limit the paddler and that limits the performance of a vessel as you put it.
Again it is a package.
Ron
The simple thing would be to let Bee build the boats and then paddle them side by side with a gps
checking it out .
I have already done that and it is educational and fun
 

mike

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2009
633
1
TEXAS!
OK, then the question should be "what is the best hull design for Beekeeper" and take his physical characteristics and paddling style into account. I must have misunderstood because I thought it was about the most efficient hull design in general.
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
If you are paddling efficiently and correctly the following is incorrect.
using your back muscles AND YOUR ARM MUSCLE they should both be tired at the end of the day ,not one but both,
The torso (trunk) muscles should be doing the vast majority of the work. Because the are so powerful compared to other muscle groups, you probably won't even notice you have been using them more than when doing anything else. Next in terms of effort expended to paddle efficiently should be your legs. If you are not bracing with your legs against the paddle stroke you are wasting available efficiency. Finally your arms and shoulders. If you have been paddling correctly and efficiently you should hardly notice at all any after effects. I won't pretend my arms and shoulders don't know they have been paddling, but then I am the first to admit that I don't paddle properly. I try to but I get distracted from doing so by, fishing, scenery, what other people in stinkboats and jetskis are doing. And I lose track of what I should be doing.

Any discussion on paddling efficiency should not need to refer to the arms other than they are a link between the paddle and the muscles of the torso. In placing so much emphasis on all the reasons one type of boat works better than another It would be easy to overlook what this is all supposed to be about. Enjoying ourselves on the water in a boat we made, the way we wanted it to be. If that boat turns out to be imperfect we all own a saw.
We are none of us Olympic class athletes, well not until they include rhetoric as an Olympic discipline.
Cheers John.
 
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mosportsmen

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2005
299
0
Kirksville MO
mosportsmen.com
Don't know if I have told this story on this forum before. (we retell stories a lot as we age)

About 200 miles into the race last fall a young man caught up to me and we started talking as we paddled. He told me he just decided to do the race a few weeks before. He said he thought it would be "fun". He also told me he had not really paddled much before the race.

I couldn't help but notice he was arm paddling for the most part. I gave him a little instruction about how to use his torso more in his strokes.

He said "Wow, that's great......wish someone had told me that 200 miles ago"

We could get by with a lot when we were younger.
Tom
 

shikeswithcanoe

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2010
63
0
I almost always paddle with a kayak paddle. But unless I am trying to really make some distance or speed or am fighting a strong current or wind I purposely paddle "wrong" using mostly my arms. My torso muscles seem to be strong enough. Its my girly arms that need a workout :)
 

tx river rat

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Feb 23, 2007
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John
I agree with 95 % of what you have stated .
It is pretty well know I like boats that can go fast and I love paddling long distances and like all of us wish that I had discovered building boats at a younger age and I love the marothon races.
I was fortunate enough to take some paddling instructions from one of the top paddlers around
has a long list of top place finishes in a lot of long distant races including the Texas water Safari.
I learned alot and like John I dont always use it all but I strive to accomplish the form I need.
Shoulders ,arms are used , so is just about all your body it should be a full body workout. A short race is 20 miles anything shorter is considered a sprint. Paddling these racees you may have flat water ,small rapids portages it is an all paddling experience that may go on from several hours to days Ok what I learned
Length of paddle and how you paddle the best is goverend by a lot of thing ,height ,width of your shoulder width ,width of the boat. To hold up to this you have to be able to adjust ,in a race you will be bracing , doing sweeps ,back paddling going from a high stroke to a mediam to a low to work different muscles so you dont wear out so quick.It is a all around package. The mechanics of a foreward stroke dont fit all these scenerios.
I didnt want to get into all this ,but my point when I posted in reply to Jack was you use more than your back or torso muscles, my mistake I should have list more so the ideal was plainer
It is close to a full body workout.
Darrel and I are going on a trip shortly that will be 10 miles down , and ten miles up fighting the current I promise with the varied condition arms and shoulders will also be tired just like the rest of my bod
Just a summary of my thought on paddling , boat design just about everything I do, look at the overall scenerio ,dont take one thing and get hung up on it because it all has to work as a package.
Ron
PS Like my wise ole dad use to say back and look around or you want see the forest for the trees
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
Getting back to the original question "what changes would I make [in hindsight]" Well I woulda painted it blue. I tried red paint on this one and its not nearly as tough as the blue I used on my first boat. Other than that I wish I hadda made provision for a drop in keel. :mrgreen:
Hmm I spose its not too late, I have a saw :D
Cheers John.
 

shikeswithcanoe

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2010
63
0
I think it would be interesting to approach a university that has water testing tanks. Often students have lab projects where they do some calculations/computer modeling and then do some lab testing (or visa versa). And, often the students/professors are looking for interesting projects to do. Problem is it is unlikey for a student to do a project useful in the real world because many of the big real world problems have had millions of dollars and thousands of PhD's working on the stuff for decades. A student with a small lab has trouble competing.

However, a comparative study of various forms of pirogues and their performance would certainly be doable and probably has NOT had an army of naval engineers working on it for decades. And the end result would actually be useful info for some folks in the real world.
 

Darrells

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2008
336
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48
Lorena,Texas
Talk about beating a Horse to death. This has ran from 9/1/10 - 1/5/12. :mrgreen: I will have to say that my Freedom and Northwind are more suited to fishing and camping than my Pirogue ( and draft less water). Although I did a lot of things in my Pirogue that it was not designed to do, Long trips, swift water and heavy winds as Chuck mentioned back in 2010 :D
As far as taking the paddler out of the equation it can't be done as the paddler is a part of the load the boat is designed to carry.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
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Shikes
Most of that has been done, boat designing software can pretty well predict the performance of a hull , top
speed and cruise stability . I have played with it and decided Matts programs are better than anything I can afford plus he has the experience and knowledge to know what the figures mean
Ron
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
What this exercise is really lacking is a discussion on the biggest single variable. Water remains pretty wet most of the time, 'cept in a really cold winter. Add salt and it becomes able to provide more bouyancy. But it is the surface of the water that provides the biggest hinderance to forward motion. (Wind has as big an effect but if it is windy stay home that day. :roll:)
I have paddled my Laker on water that resembled glass, as have other folk a lot more able/fit/technically correct than I. Even at thirteen foot long that hull provides remarkable speed with excellent rewards in terms of speed for maximum effort. (If you're really into the effort thing that is)
A slight riffle on the water, not a problem, but as the water surface increases in roughness the Laker slows down to the stage where in short pitched sloppy and windy conditions it becomes a pain in the artifact. Big swells are not as bad provided the water remains consistent ie, no whitecaps. Most boats handle a particular type of water surface better than they do others. I blame the sides of the boat, lack of flare means it loses its ability to remain "objective" to the conditions. The water HITS the flat sides of the boat rather than peel away as it contacts a gradually inclined surface. My other boat has a more flared bow/stern and rides out the rougher water a lot more comfortably, therefore ultimately more efficiently.
It does not matter what a computer programme tells us how a boat should perform. The reality is that a boat will perform better or worse depending on the medium it is moving through. Whether or not there is a good bad or indifferent paddler on board is also irrelevant. A paddler in his boat still has to manage the conditions, as they change from minute to minute.

On the front of very large ocean going vessels a bulbous protrusion just below the water line "breaks" the water ahead of the bow. Millions of $ are spent tailoring these things to suit the characteristics of each individual boat. Something to do with primary and secondary wave formations created by the boat itself. Sounds drastic but it would be interesting for someone who has a bit of time on their hands and a vivid imagination to add a giant phallic shaped object on the front of the boat as well,and let us know how they get on. :mrgreen:
edited heaps
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
John
You have convinced me ,dadburn water and wave conditions make it durn near impossible for a paddler without a whole lot of flair to the sides, yep yall are right ,I am fixing to spread the word far and wide more FLAIR to every new boat builder I meet. I surrender
HEHEHE now I can paddle easy and look like I am flying and everybody will be buying 240 cm paddles and when they cant sell them 22o and 210 cm Werners I am going to buy them for pennies on the dollar.
MORE FLAR yep folks get them while there hot this new boat has so much flair it looks like a pancake. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can see the bulb on the front end of that new kayak but I aint figured out where you are going to put that 3000 hp diesel in that yak yet ,But I be working on it .

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ron
 

ezwater

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
50
0
tx river rat---- in whitewater kayaking circles, there is an imaginary playboat known as the POP, or Piece of Plywood.

You could glass it if you want, but try it first so you know whether you want to spend for the FG and epoxy. :mrgreen: