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What Works / What Don't

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
Flare does not mean you have to end up with a boat four feet wide. It is just a way of transitioning from the bottom of a boat to the side of a boat. If you transit the ninety degrees in one hit which is close to what Laker's have, you will achieve a result. Great in flat water, deteriorating in performance as the water surface becomes rougher.
Then you can round the ninety degrees outwards as in your northwind and achieve a different result. Flare is just a reversing of that same curve to deflect water rather than try to batter you way though, or across as the case may be, as with the sharp chined laker.

It wasn't a bulb
it would be interesting for someone who has a bit of time on their hands and a vivid imagination to add a giant phallic shaped object on the front of the boat as well,
:lol:
Cheers John.
 

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
12,931
57
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
When you get all done with square corners, angled corners, etc., a semi rounded bottom will have less wetted area, and no sharp angles to catch the water - no matter from what direction it is coming. Verlen Kruger did that on his Sea Wind canoes. They are a world class boat that travels oceans, rivers, streams, lakes, and swamps. Matt's Northwind is in the same style.
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
John
The Laker 13 and the other boat you built ,name slipped my mind,the Northwind or a ship with a bulb on the front have nothing to do with this conversation. We were discussing bees 3 panel perow. I have expressed my views and tried to make it as plain as I could with examples and
the reason I felt that way and I doubt I will go through the stuff again on this thread.
If you dont think a good operator and a good software program can predict and help design a craft . I am going to be like you and edit my thoughts here
I built a Laker and it is an awesome little boat ,it isnt a sea kayak, your other boat is much better in rough water ,it was designed by Matt on a computer for sea kayak performance.
I weighed 230 when I built the laker and if I carried much gear with me she was overloaded and performance suffered , now my Grandaughter at 110 lbs and gear the boat preformed great.
Again every boat is a compromise and none will do it all.
I do apoloquize for my use of bulb instead of the correct spelling , but in my defense I thought the introduction of a Bulb on the front of a power ship was so rediculas in a discussion about a 3 panel perows paddlecraft that you had to be making a joke, so I played with the words some.
To sum all this up I dont care how anyone builds there boats ,it has no effect on me . If a question is ask I will voice my thoughts and tell you what I have experienced. You take it or leave it.
Now you boys have fun with this ,I am going fishing for the next few days .
Have a good one
Ron
 

JEM

Well-Known Member
john the pom said:
Flare does not mean you have to end up with a boat four feet wide. It is just a way of transitioning from the bottom of a boat to the side of a boat. If you transit the ninety degrees in one hit which is close to what Laker's have, you will achieve a result. Great in flat water, deteriorating in performance as the water surface becomes rougher.
For the record, The Laker side panels are not close to the 90. I guess "close" is in the eye of the beholder.

FYI: Its flare is constantly swept on the rail curve and its bow/stern rake is "naturally" formed from it's constant flare angle. It also has a slight V bottom. There's a couple other traits I won't discuss.

Bottom line: Laker is not comparable to the 3-panel boat concept discussed here. It's not even close from a design perspective.

If we're leaving the paddler out of the flare/performance discussion, we're leaving the Laker out of it too. I don't want anyone thinking it's comparable to what is being discussed in this thread.
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
Don't recall comparing anything to a three panel boat. I was merely stating that sloppy to rough water has a different effect on a boat, when compared with glass out or relatively flat water.
I believe the sides and transition to hull of a boat will react differently in either of those conditions. Then I was comparing a relatively flat sided boat to a relatively curved or segmented side of a boat, whether flared inward or outward, and their characteristics in various conditions. Feel free to disagree me. I will not take offence if you believe either the shape of a boat or the water conditions in which it is operating has no effect on the performance of whatever shaped boat it might be. Whether or not the paddler is in the equation or not is, I agree irrelevant I was saying that THE paddler, with his skills, techniques and experience has to MANAGE the conditions and his boat. The degree to which he does that is immeasureable as all paddlers are different.
Cheers John.
I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the protrusion on the front of large boats and admit to playing with words also. This device effectively changes the waterline length of a boat, and is considered to be a streamlined method to "Part or break" the water ahead of the boat. :wink:
 

mike

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2009
628
1
TEXAS!
john the pom said:
......I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the protrusion on the front of large boats and admit to playing with words also. This device effectively changes the waterline length of a boat, and is considered to be a streamlined method to "Part or break" the water ahead of the boat. :wink:
I've wondered what that "protrusion" was for. I never thought about it being a water breaker. Thanks for the information.

Mike
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,817
31
75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
mike said:
john the pom said:
......I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the protrusion on the front of large boats and admit to playing with words also. This device effectively changes the waterline length of a boat, and is considered to be a streamlined method to "Part or break" the water ahead of the boat. :wink:
I've wondered what that "protrusion" was for. I never thought about it being a water breaker. Thanks for the information.

Mike
Not exactly a new idea since the most prominent fighting ship of this time was the Trireme. That is what the Greeks called there warships back around 500BC. The front of them had an extension or protrusion which was made from bronze. The idea was to use that bronze ram to ram the enemy's ship just below the water line. That's how they sunk each other during a naval battle back then. Naval battles during that time were basically bumper cars on water or for a better term .... bumper boats.
 
Likes: FrankAS

Kayak Jack

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2003
12,931
57
81
Okemos / East Lansing Michigan
It would be interesting to see some tests in a lab of two identical boats - one with and one without the underwater hog nose. As far as I know, no reliable research has been done on paddle craft. Higher speed big boats use that protrusion as a radome for sonar, I think. So, they get a double benefit from it. At the speeds we travel, no one has found an authentic hydrodynamic advantage - so far.
 

ezwater

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
50
0
Y'all may know this already, but a modern replica of a Greek Trireme was built in the Athens area, and crewed by oarsmen recruited from modern competition rowing. It achieved quite respectable speeds and was generally a success. Because the ram was backed by a sturdy wooden extension, I don't think removing the ram would prove anything about below water bow extensions and speed.

The main reasons the trireme is fast are its favorable length to width ratio, and the combined efforts of a lot of people on the oars.

Back in the day, an order was given in Athens to execute a bunch of people on a distant island because of some behavioral failing. A trireme was dispatched to carry the order. The trireme left, kind of dogging it becaue who wants to carry and deliver such a message? Some hours later, calmer heads prevailed in Athens, and a second trireme with a crack crew was dispatched. The boat made the best possible speed overnight, and arrived at the island just in time to prevent the executions. Triremes were certainly the fastest large rowing craft, maybe faster than a modern eight oared rowing shell.
 

john the pom

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2007
345
1
Queensland
It would be interesting to see some tests in a lab of two identical boats - one with and one without the underwater hog nose. As far as I know, no reliable research has been done on paddle craft.
That about sums up what I was trying to say, who knows???
 

tx river rat

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,043
2
Waco Tx
I did a little research on these boats , the projection was for ramming other folks ships.
What I did find interesting were the measurements of this boat.
115 ft long by 16 ft wide.
Length to width ratio is nearly the same as the Northwind
So much for contributing to the high jacking of this thread. :lol: :lol:
John
My reply to your post should have been plainer , there are a hundred factors that effect a boat
wind ,current,condition of the water , design of the boat ,etc no one disagrees with that.
But that wasnt what was being discussed ,perows ,three panel boats is what the discussions about
And that is why I replied that the boats listed had nothing to do with this discussion.
I have 8 of my boats here.3 perows none paddle the same ,handle rough water the same ,have a top speed that is the same and none have equal opportunity for the paddler at the highest effenciency.
My thought were for improvement of a three panel boat to help in these areas within the normal use of a perow.
Ron
Location and job spacific apply here
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,411
13
For cleaning epoxy, varnish, or paint runs or build up, like this paint:


This scraper works realy well. I have two more, different shaped blades, that will work with all kinds of shapes. I like to use the sharp point to get a clean edge in the joints:


beekeeper
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,411
13
What Don't: Luan plywood finished with marine varnish. This boat is only 2 yrs. old and has been used less than a dozen times. Stored on 4" runners off the concrete floor under a patio roof. Never put away with standing water in it. It is delaminating. and the wood shows signs of mold and rot. Would it have done the same if it had been epoxy saturated or glassed over? I don't know. Seems even a small amount of moisture will cause problems. Not posting this to knock anybody's choices, only saying I don.t think marine varnish alone is enough protection.





beekeeper
 

oldsparkey

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2003
9,817
31
75
Central , Florida
www.southernpaddler.com
beekeeper said:
What Don't: Luan plywood finished with marine varnish. This boat is only 2 yrs. old and has been used less than a dozen times. Stored on 4" runners off the concrete floor under a patio roof. Never put away with standing water in it. It is delaminating. and the wood shows signs of mold and rot. Would it have done the same if it had been epoxy saturated or glassed over? I don't know. Seems even a small amount of moisture will cause problems. Not posting this to knock anybody's choices, only saying I don.t think marine varnish alone is enough protection.

beekeeper
I would think that by encapsulating the wood in the epoxy and then the fiberglass it would act as a total sealant for the wood and protect it.
I have the 1st piroue I made ( 2001 ) and it is in as good as shape today as when it was made and it is totally epoxy saturated , glassed and varnished.
I use it and then clean it and store it inside my shop.
 

oldbuffpilot

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2014
233
4
75
Central Kansas and Central Texas
What Works What Don’t
2 to 3 years ago I built two 12 foot Herblite specials—just to see how it worked and held up. Both were well used by grandchildren and visitors here at the lake. Treated pretty rough being turned over in the lake, dragged around the yard and such. The aluminum skin and frames have done surprisingly well—still going strong. A few small dents and creases, but no real damage. The trim coil works, but no doubt has limitations.

I took the cedar framed one to Texas two years ago, used it maybe 30 fishing trips and stored it outside upside down. What doesn’t work is Luan coated with resin, (no glass) stored outside. This pirogue was used pretty hard in the San Gabriel rocks, but didn’t hold up like the glassed UJ bottoms used next to it.
I experimented because I wanted a light weight, simple boat and they do meet that purpose at 22 and 24 pounds.

However the JEM TV 12-32 cedar stripped with 6 oz cloth inside and outside, double on most of the bottom, came in at 30 pounds. I know it is strong and stable. JEM designs work!









Good Fish’n

Andy
 

beekeeper

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
1,411
13
Need a panel 11'-10" long"?

What works is one 12' board cut off to the correct length.

What don't work is two 6' boards scarfed together. :oops: :x

I'm not telling how I know, but your guess is probably correct.

beekeeper