What Works / What Don't

[beekeeper]

Ron I didn't see your response when I posted this. I guess as a rule of thumb each may sink about the same, but I would think the pirogue would handle the extra weight better.


Joey the "about" 1" part I got (for one boat). I think two different boats would have different drafts.
Other questions I have asked tend to lead to comparisons boats not designed to the same requirements.
A kayak is said to be faster than a pirogue, but it is designed to different functions. Build it to function as a pirogue (shallow draft, easy to turn, high seating,easy entry, etc.) and I suspect little differance. To do these jobs as well it would probably have to turn into a pirogue. The reverse is also true. Another topic discussed was stability of round bottoms verses flat ones. Could not get every one on the same page, because every body wanted to compare their boat to somebody's else's, usually a kayak or canoe to a pirogue. Build a kayak to sit as high as a canoe and it probably will be a canoe.
There is nothing wrong with comparing our different boats(apples to oranges). Comparing design features needs to be apples to apples if we are to understand their functions. Each of the type boats we disscuss on here have evolved into designs that work well for their intended purposes. Sometimes my goals and ideas fall in between these.

Asking agin; Has anyone else weighed their boat. Please share.

beekeeper

 

[tx river rat]

Let me go back and add to my post, the inch per hundred lbs on a 15 ft boat is a starting point and I should have worded like this a boat will average sinking another inch with an added 100 lbs over the lb the boat was rated for, this is just a starting point but it does come out pretty close on all my boats I have checked. (a rule of thumb)
The difference between what we call a deck canoe a canoe a perow and a kayak is pretty vague and most of the time it is called what it looks like and with what kind of paddle we use, so our conversations about different boats are closer than they seem.
A good example is the boat I am building now has decks,Kayak is a three panel must be a perow, or an easy call would be a decked canoe. It is just my boat :lol:
A three panel with the same slope on the sides,really has less area in the water than a v bottom ,at the same water line so the v should should displace more water.
My whole point of my earlier statement was this, most of the things we are talking about
want make a 1/4 of an inch difference in free board or water line point .You will never know it
when your paddling the boat.
Weight of boats I have posted , and as long as I stay around fifty lbs I am happy. On another forum a gentleman there really pushed light boats. and I asked him this question
besides loading and unloading a boat what difference would you see in performance of a boat that had a payload of 175 to 250 lbs with a 200 lb paddler in a 40 lb boat or a 60 lb boat.
The answer is you would never know the difference.

Ron

 

[tx river rat]

Beekeeper
Sorry just caught this post about the weather cocking
A side wind will have more to grab onto if you just deck one end, a good example is my T-V
flat deck in back peaked in front ,basically what your talking about . A side wind has a lot of efect on her ,weather cocking , on my last couple boats I put what I called balanced decks on the , the same front and back , weathercocking is no problem at all in fact on the Cuda and the Duck wind just isnt much of a factor.

 

[oldsparkey]

The side surface area of the boat to the wind also determines the wetahercocking , the higher the side more for the wind to play with , the less is just that less.
Ron loads his boats down on a trip especially that one on the Brazos I was figuring he would need a para scope.

About the only thing there for the wind to hit is ...... RON....... :wink: Grant you we started out in nice weather but Ron being the perfect host managed to conger up some unforgettable weather on the last day.... ( I swear I heard him doing a storm dance in his tent that night but Bear said he did not hear it ) That wind in the morning would of weathercocked a Battleship in dry-dock. Wish I would of taken some pictures of the waves but I was to busy going with then so they would not come over the back of my canoe or me and I was in the center of the canoe paddling solo.

Ron and Darrells were paddling along in there boats like nothing was going on. I was white knuckle paddling , actually steering while sailing with the wind and waves pushing me and Bear was about the same as me in his canoe. The wind sure hit the canoes and us from the back offering a lot of downstream speed.
I did not really ever paddle , just steer the canoe and would pass Ron and Darrels while going with the wind. The wind was not bothering Ron at all , he actually had to paddle but not a lot.

It was the trip of a life time , wish all of you could of been there. It was the proving ground for the boats and all of them passed with flying colors. You don't know what your boat can do till it really has to preform , not the Sunday afternoon paddling situation.

 

[tx river rat]

I am going to make some statements here from my experiences paddling . Take them roll them around a bit.
Round bottom
Less initial stability depending on the hull shape better secondary stability.
V like the Laker series better initial good secondary
flat bottom best initial stability worse secondary

Tracking
v bottom is the best
round bottom second
flat bottom the worst ,in a classic perow configuration with a lot of rocker

turning from a stand still
flat bottom best
round bottom second
v bottom last

Handling while moving ,turning
Depending on the paddler a lot here, if they know how to heel a boat
V bottom best
round second
perow last

_Paddling effieciency

Against a current
Round best
v second
perow last

with the current
v best
round second
flat 3

Flat water
round and v are so close you cant tell the difference
perow second

All these with the same water line and beam
carring capacity will be so close you will never know it between the different hull designs
Factors that influence us the most in paddling efficiency or speed

No 1 the motor ( YOU ) more important than hull shape
No 2 The paddle we spend money time and effort on the best design boats ,but the fastest boat I have want keep up with the slowest boat I have if I have a dud of a paddle.
No Usage of boats ,they will all work but they need to be built for your usage ,up stream downstream flat water,design it for what you do the most off

JD talked about a 10% increase in performance , now on a couple mile trip that doesnt mean much, But come make a 30 mile trip with me and it will mean close to three hours less paddling time

I went and measured my T-V and then looked at the picture Chuck posted ,500 lbs and 5 to 5 1/2 inches of draft in the pic so I guess my buddy was pretty close .

This is my findings from paddling a lot of different boats and with a lot of different folks in there boats, not scientific,on a grain scale ,or a friction meter , but they are facts not theory in my opion.
Ron

 

[oldsparkey]

Ron....

A good conclusion about the boats but I have to say that the most important factor is the person paddling it and the situation in which they chose to use that boat for paddling.

Each type of boat and it's configuration has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on where the boat , paddler , and the use of it is intended. I would even go so far as to say even the load that the boat has to carry......A day tripper with just themselves is a whole world different then a person going on an extended trip.
You can take a boat for a day trip and it might act squirrel for you , load it down and it becomes a dream to paddle , or the reverse.

:lol: The trick is trying to figure out which is the best for that situation , as in life you have to give a little to get a little to suite the needs for what you wish to do. That has been the unanswered question since people started making boats...... I can see a cave man saying this is the finest boat available then when trying it .... Dam I need to modify it so it can do this or that. :wink:

My guess is it is like all things in life ...... A personal choice for personal use in the situation that person desires. One boat is like one shoe , does not fit everyone.

I would say you have come the close for the explanation of the different boats and the benefits and drawbacks of them.
1... The V bottom for forward movement can't be beat and a pain to turn in tight spaces. Taking a dime , it would take 8 cents to turn it.
2... The round bottom , a happy marriage of the V and the flat bottom but still hard to turn in real tight spaces. It tends to want to go straight but is a little willing to make a tight turn. Again with the dime , about a nickle to turn it.
3... The flat bottom , you would get 5 cents back in turning it. The darn thing can spin around on itself.
That is what I have found out down here paddling the swamps and dodging trees , stumps and anything else. Most of the time there is a boat length to turn in and sometimes a lot , a whole lot , less. All the time trying to thread the boat threw a area that is about the width of the boat.

I guess it is like the Realities say all the time .... Location , Location , Location.....

I will keep my Canoes and pirogues , they work really well for me depending on where I want to go down here in the swamps. Shallow draft and maneuverability , the two most important factors for me.
Your TV impressed the Hell out of me on the Brazos along with Joe's on Fisheating Creek trip, might have to have one in the future , good all round boat. Ha Ha ha there I go after another Potato Chip ( one is not enough) especially if I ever end up on the Brazos again.

As a wise Texas Redneck has said........ There ain't no perfect tent , wood boat , hatch , sleeping bag or women :lol:

Chuck.

 

[seedtick]

give me an example of what you're calling a "round bottom" boat

reckon i'd call a round bottom boat a log, and it ain't got squat for primary or secondary stability, turning or paddling performance

 

[tx river rat]

Seedtick
They call them round bottom there really round cornered like most of your sea kayaks and
stripper boats
Ron
Love your post about the log. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Kayak Jack]

I think that Ronnie means a semi-rounded bottom? That's what it is called most of the time.

While I've never compared a series of boats both up and down stream, I'm not sure what the differences would be. A boat moves both with the water and through the water. Less friction of a semi-rounded bottom boat should allow the same speed relative to the water either way. Ground speed should vary with up/downstream orientation, but speed through the water should be close to the same. What experiences did you have that led to the difference here? Thanks, it's curious.

 

[tx river rat]

Jack
I have paddled up and down stream , in fact most of my paddling is on a river where I deal with current every day .and THE FACT THAT A ROUND BOTTOM BOAT IS FASTER UP STREAM AND THE HARD CHINED OR V BOTTOM IS FASTER DOWNSTREAM. comes from paddling beside full stripers going up river and getting walked of from and then turning down river and walking off and leaving them , plus guys in the know like Mat will tell you the same thing. The hard chined boat has more corners to catch on going up stream and those same sharp edges catch the current and help you coming down. My opion is from paddling what is your from. Your big words dont jive on this ,and even you will have to admitt paddling upstream the water has different effect than down stream
Oh and another deal a semi - rounded bottom isnt your favorite saying , I have heard you preach the merits of a round bottom boat a hundred times on here, that being said we are both wrong ,it is a soft chined boat
Ron
Everything I posted above comes from experiences I had paddleing or paddling with someone, not theory ,or out of a book just cold hard facts

 

[Kayak Jack]

Ron, maybe you can ease off here? I am asking questions and was offering a thought to help clarify your terminology. Please don't be so defensive?

 

[Jimmy W]

The hard chined boat has more corners to catch on going up stream and those same sharp edges catch the current and help you coming down.

If you are going downstream and are moving faster than the current, how can the sharp chines catch on the current and help you. I can see how it might help pull you along if you are going slower or the same speed as the current. I used to do a lot of whitewater paddling in up to class III-IV whitewater on the Nantahala River on NC, the Ocoee in TN, the Chattooga on the Ga-SC border and many others mainly in Georgia.

 

[tx river rat]

Jack
I am just stating the facts as I see them and how I have experienced them.
Ron

 

[tx river rat]

Jimmy
What kind of boat were you doing that in ,bet it wasnt a hard chined one. I have very limited white water experience but from what I saw the boats were designed to have as little bite in the water as they could
Ok we all drove old hot rods If you took a 69 gto that would run a hundred and 60 miles an hour and a lotus that would do the same on a windless day , you pick a 60 mile tail wind up the big gto will benefit more from the tail wind than the than the aerodynamic Lotus.
It is the same in the boats ,it takes x amount of power to reach say 5 miles an hour in a soft chined and a hard chined boat on flat water , with a current carring you it takes more power to reach that speed with the soft chined boat taking away from the top speed that is achievable.
I have seen this prove out paddling with Darrel in his Freedom striper , a 18 ft marothon boat that a lady here paddles, several marathon boats that were stripers that I paddled beside,I promise you it works.
Ron

 

[Kayak Jack]

Ron, I understand that you are writing about your observations. Others have their observations, questions, opinions, and emotions too. When someone else comes to a conclusion that is different than yours, it isn't meant as a challenge or insult to you. Just a different conclusion drawn from their experience.

 

[tx river rat]

Jack
I dont have a problem with that. I just state what I have experienced as in my above post and stated it was my own opion. That is why I build toy boats , try to figure out how to get my point across like sticking an icepick in a finish. I am not real impressed with theories I like facts better.
Ron
Ron

 

[beekeeper]

Beekeeper
Sorry just caught this post about the weather cocking
A side wind will have more to grab onto if you just deck one end, a good example is my T-V
flat deck in back peaked in front ,basically what your talking about . A side wind has a lot of efect on her ,weather cocking , on my last couple boats I put what I called balanced decks on the , the same front and back , weathercocking is no problem at all in fact on the Cuda and the Duck wind just isnt much of a factor.

Ron not saying it's not so,but could there be another reason the T-V weather cocks more than the other two? The shape of the decks is not the only differances. Seems the shape differance between the front deck and rear one would have only a minor effect on the winds ability to move the boat more on one end over the other. Could it be the T-V hull offers less side resistance to the wind or has a larger wind signature.
I assumed my pirogue's bow drifted around because the stern was sitting lower in the water creating more resistance. A deck on the front would reduce the forces of the wind on the bow end?

beekeeper

 

[tx river rat]

Beekeeper
The T-V is my go to boat and has the same basic design as my 15 ft cuda my duck
all are v bottoms asymmetrical. the T-V with its high front deck and low back deck will weather cock bad the other two that I balanced the deck the wind has very little
effect.
I paddle in a lot of wind,the Brazos is terrible about it.This makes me very aware of what the wind does to my boats. I have paddled canoes for year and that is one reason I went to yaks ,the wind has less effect on them,an open boat catches a lot more wind than a decked one.
So to answer your question ,no I dont think anything but wind effects my T-V weather cocking.
Listening to what you want ,have you ever considered a cloth deck front and back you could unsnap or hinged decks that you could pick up out of your way. might get the decks and the ability to get out of the boat any way you want.
Ron

 

[Jimmy W]

I used a 15' 9" Blue Hole OCA which was considered a very good whitewater canoe back then. It is the boat in my avatar. That photo was taken on the Chattooga River. I think that was at Dick's Creek Ledge, but it might have been at Second Ledge. Anyway the Blue Hole has a very flat bottom with soft chines and not much rocker. These days the design would be very dated a more modern whitewater boat would have a more rounded or arch shaped bottom with much more rocker. That boat always was a compromise, I didn't want to spend the money for both a solo and a tandem boat, so that both got used for both. It was really too big for a solo boat, but I had fun in it. One trip down the Ocoee was enough though, I didn't turn over or swim, but decided that river was too much like work in a big open boat. I probably had to stop and dump water about a dozen times in 6 miles.
Anyway I don't follow your reasoning. A 60 mph tailwind will slow down the apparent airspeed to a car going downwind and that probably would affect the Pontiac more, but I still don't see how drag against a slower current is going to speed a boat up.

 

[beekeeper]

Thanks to all that have responded to my post. When I started to participate on this forum I told myself not to discuss politics or argue. It's suppose to be fun and a learning experance. I belive my questions may have caused us to leave those ideals. I will continue my questions and thoughts at another time and post. I thought we could share our experances of what works/what don't and learn something and maybe help someone less experanced. I ask too many questions and I apoligze if I started, or caused any hard feelings.

beekeeper
PS Ron you posted your last post as I was typing this. I have been cosidering cloth or temp. decks. Thanks for the sugestion.