What Works / What Don't

[tx river rat]

Beekeeper we all learn a lot from these discussions,so dont apologize . If folks dont express there experiences and and what they have tried no one will learn a thing.
Now Jack and I hammer each other pretty hard at times ,but we still cut up and go on too.
It is just like the trip we made together he hated the Brazos ,I love it and I feel the same way about lakes ,I really dont care for them he likes them different strokes for different folk.
Jimmy
Let me tack another shot at this the gto being a bigger car ,more surface area would be effected by a head wind with more resistance, with a tail wind being a bihggger object it would benn
fit more from the tail wind.
Ron

Next time Darrels in here ask him .
Oh hell we need to have another get together and I will let you paddle the boats side by side then you explain it. it does work
Ron

 

[Jimmy W]

I follow you with the GTO and am not disagreeing there. I just don't see how that equates with the boat thing. Also on the whitewater boats, my experience isn't with downriver racing type boats, but with more like a whitewater play boat which are designed for maximum maneuverability with a lot of freeboard for handling big waves and very full ends for riding over waves. I brought it up because I am used to paddling in currents. Also my old Blue Hole is 35" wide, so often I was on one side paddling with one chine down and the other above water. In effect, this would make the bottom more rounded with more rocker than it would have when flat.

Trying to sneak by Second Ledge. I got too far right this time and got the edge of the boat under the waterfall. So I had to dump out some water right after this. I had to stop and pick up Eddie who walked around with my camera anyhow. My friend Keith standing by kayak.

This is the Chattooga River where Deliverance was filmed, so if you have seen the movie you have seen more of the river. The big waterfall in the movie isn't really on this river, but is nearby.

 

[Kayak Jack]

BeeKeeper, as Ron says, we do need to continue to learn and explore outer edges of our sport. I'm not at all sure, though, that we have any need to try to seek concurrence or agreement. Just explore and share.

There are three, basic reasons to communicate: (A) to entertain. (B) to inform. And (C) to persuade. In most cases, we should be able to stick to A & B, and have little to no need to persuade another to agree with us; just laugh along with us and listen in a friendly manner.

And, of course, provide Hershey bars for the deserving young'uns. (hand in the air here; dancing up and down; waving wildly to portly, friendly looking, grandfatherly-type guy who has a big grin on his face)

 

[oldsparkey]

I think the obvious is missing or I missed it reading the posts.

Basically a boat going up stream will be going the same speed as down stream considering that the same effort is put into paddling you will cover less distance , upstream. You are paddling at 3 mph and going up stream the river is flowing at 2 mph so your upstream speed would be 1 mph.

( I know , most of us paddle harder going up stream then we do downstream so the extra effort increases the speed of the boat , the point is that you have to put more effort into it since you have to go the 2 mph to make any forward movement. To do the 3 mph upstream you actual have to paddle 5 mph. )

Going down stream you have the 2 mph advantage of the rivers flow and in order to maintain control of the boat the boat should be going better then the 2 mph river flow so it requires paddling but at a more relaxed rate of effort.

The speed I mentioned is just an number picked at random for explanations sake , it would vary per paddler and there ability. I am thinking of a day long paddle and not one where a person is racing , just a distance , mile , eating speed.

The narrower the boat the easier it is to go upstream since there is less of a whetted surface for the paddler to overcome. A skinny kayak is a dam site easier to paddle upstream then a canoe or Pirogue. I would say the canoe is the hardest of the three to go upstream with , anyway that is the way it works for me down here.

Paddling up the Silver River in the kayak I was not having any problems covering some water , the guys in the canoes were bitching and finally decided to stop , turn around and go on down to the Ocklawaha and the campsite. Going down river it was a lot easier and faster since the water was helping to move the boat. Sort of like when the wind hits your back.

Paddling on the Econ with the kayak and going 9 miles to a campsite upstream it took me the same time to get to the campsite as it did to return to the vehicle after camping. The current in the Econ was very little at the time. Using a canoe at a later date it took a lot longer in the same water conditions. A wider boat taking more water to support it will require more effort to move threw the water weather it is a V , round or flat bottom.

I believe the term is ... Resistance.

Chuck........

 

[seedtick]

interesting read on stability

http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillem ... _stability

but alas, they too are talking generalities

they talk about rounded edges but don't define the arc of the round
they talk about flared sides but aren't specific as to the degree of flare
they talk about semi-vee but don't describe the included angle of the vee
etc., etc.

 

[Kayak Jack]

Interesting. Yes keeping a paddler rigid does provide a picture of a boat's inherent resistance to roll (stability). And, some hull cross-sections are more predictable than others.

 

[tx river rat]

Jimmy
Those are some awesome pic ,look like it would be a blast.
I am going to throw some more stuff out there

Boats I have built
and completed and paddled
4 Pewrows and another one will be paddled in the next few weeks
Freedom a 5 panel a flat bottom with panels sloping up then the sides.
4 v bottoms.
built a couple more for other folks but never paddled them.
Fishing and paddling I will go upstream anywhere from 4 to ten miles then paddle back down so we get a good cross section of paddling, most of the areas have deep pools then small rapids ,depending on the level of the river. This is my test grounds ,now the racing is a whole different world . I can build a soft chine ,flat bottom are v bottom ,but you notice my boats are all v that I race. That comes from trying close to 50 different boats.
This is my opion
The v is the fastest down river and I can handle it better, the v I have built are very mild , no more than an inch of v, it does a couple things ,stiffens the bottom, serves as a keel which helps the speed and tracking,you paddle straight with no wobble you go faster, and I think it is a little more efficient than the flat bottom.
As I gain experience and paddle I have found a few things that are set in stone for me
Longer water line is faster ,I will get to a point where that is not true and I figure it will be between 18 and 20 ft.
Being narrow is faster
I started out shaky in a 28 inch wide kayak and as I gain experience I have paddled some 19 inch wide yaks and felt fine
For me a low profile and balanced decks for paddling in the wind.
One more note here I can fish and camp out of any boat I have built.

Seedtick found that article and it is the reason I have built so many boats and am very skeptical of flat statement (theories about boat design) you cant get a straight answer to a question because there are so many varibles . So I build try them out and try to improve on every boat.
Last thing is I have found the more efficent boats are the one I paddle the most,I can go farther ,work half as hard , see more country.and just enjoy it more.
Maybe this will give a little insight into my beliefs
Ron

 

[oldsparkey]

Thanks to all that have responded to my post. When I started to participate on this forum I told myself not to discuss politics or argue. It's suppose to be fun and a learning experance. I belive my questions may have caused us to leave those ideals. I will continue my questions and thoughts at another time and post. I thought we could share our experances of what works/what don't and learn something and maybe help someone less experanced. I ask too many questions and I apoligze if I started, or caused any hard feelings.

beekeeper

beekeeper.....

Something you missed or someone might of forgotten to tell you. We have all sorts of paddlers on here and they paddle all sorts of different types of water.
All of them are sharing there experience , while others like to go into a finer detail about the subject matter and end up dissecting it to prove a point , normally it is a point that works for them in there area. A prime example is the old , This is the way we did it in New York.

Does not matter what the subject matter is , anything from tents to hammocks , tarps to toothbrushes , beanie wieners to Vienna's , even something as simple as a campfire. When a post is answered with that persons experience. You can bet someone from a different area has a different way of doing it and according to each it is the only way to do it.

Doing things down south is way different then up north and the same for the east or west. It's all are about it being the right way since it works for that person, might call it a personal choice.

Example.... I like a hammock because there are trees everywhere I paddle here in my area. Heck in some of the area there is no way you would even get a tent in there without cutting some trees down. If I would tell Ron that is all to camp in and that is all he should use , he would have me committed since his river is way short on trees but big on gravel bars and wide open spaces which are ideal areas for a tent and lousy for a hammock.
Now if I did not know what his area is like and had not actually paddled and camped there , if I suggested it ..... we could spend a lot of time discussing which is the best and what he should do since that is how I do it here.

Not picking on Ron , just that his area is 180 degrees from the area I paddle in with the tree lined rivers , a lot of the rivers have a canopy over them because of the trees. Ron's area , a tree is a rare sight along the river and any you do see it is illegal to camp there.

Even with the innocent question that you asked .... I thought we could share our experances of what works/what don't and learn something and maybe help someone less experanced. You sure are getting your moneys worth.

In summary , you received the exact type of response that I knew you would on here. Anything else would of been disappointing. :lol:

 

[Kayak Jack]

<SNIP> If I would tell Ron that is all to camp in and that is all he should use , he would have me committed since his river is way short on trees but big on gravel bars and wide open spaces which are ideal areas for a tent and lousy for a hammock. <SNIP>

And, the Brazos is heavy on stuff other than gravel bars and open spaces too. One night my tent was on 6 or 7 cow pies. Most of'em were dried out. Those, I used as a door step.

What we really know is a large collection of opinions. The ones we believe to be true, we call facts. (Remember, it used to be a fact that the world was flat and the sun revolved around it.) But as the situational envelope changes, "fact" becomes lesser and lesser, sometimes reversing.

The answer to most everything can be prefaced with two caveats: "It depends, .....", and "This is only temporary; it will change".

"Besides, folks who think they know it all are particularly frustrating to those of us who really do."

 

[Jimmy W]

I just had a problem with one statement.
"The hard chined boat has more corners to catch on going up stream and those same sharp edges catch the current and help you coming down."

If you are moving faster than the current going downstream, then any part of the boat catching the current will add to the drag. I do not see increasing drag leading to increased speed. It doesn't surprise me at all that some folks would be faster going downstream and others faster going back up even if they are paddling identical boats. For instance, water on the surface can be faster than deeper water which is being slowed by friction with the bottom. A lower angle paddling stroke might be faster downstream while a deeper stroke might be faster going up. Also water in the center on a stream is often faster than along the edges except in turns the faster water will be toward the outside of the turn and how a paddler uses that and any eddies will make a difference. Also shallow water will slow down a canoe because of the bow wave interacting with the bottom, a skinny front end to cut through the wave and a wider back end to support in the trough of the wave will help there. In short, there are many variables, but increased drag isn't going to help to go fast.

By the way, I never did answer the question about what boats I have built. So far I have built two of Matt's designs the Touring Pirogue-T and the South Wind 15-30. I am happy with each of them for my uses. As I mentioned in another thread, my next build just might be something different from anything I have ever seen discussed on this forum if I can ever decide on a plan.

Edit: and I still have my old heavy beat to hell Blue Hole and I own an old Sears aluminum square stern canoe that is at my father's house in Mississippi.

 

[tx river rat]

Jimmy
All I can tell you is try it if you get a chance, I have and it works.
Ron

 

[beekeeper]

Beekeeper
"The T-V is my go to boat and has the same basic design as my 15 ft cuda my duck...
So to answer your question ,no I dont think anything but wind effects my T-V weather cocking."

Ron
I was not implying there was another force, or design feature causing the T-V to weathercock. I understand it is the wind turning the boat. I was asking if there could be design features of the other two boats (decks, rocker ,side profile, weight distibution, etc.) that makes them better in the wind. I can't see (understand) the differance between the front deck and the back one being the problem. All my boats (not decked) are blown around at the bow by a side wind. I belive this is because the front end sits higher in the water column and offers less water resistance, when pushed side'ways. They probably have a larger wind signature aft, because I sit behind center and my profile is a large signature.

beekeeper

 

[tx river rat]

Bee
The higher deck in the front catches more side wind than the flat deck in the back.
The other two boats have decks that are equal in length and height ,also I dropped the height of the bow and stern.
Here we go ,in my head an open boat hooks the wind ,you sitting in the rear portion ,it makes sense the bow blows around. Get you some plastic ,duck tape it to your boat like a deck that should be an easy way to tell.

Ron

 

[beekeeper]

I understand what your saying. I already had plans to try a temporary deck. "You got to go to know."

beekeeper

 

[Kayak Jack]

BeeKeeper, go to Cooke Custom Sewing for canoe decks. http://www.cookecustomsewing.com/

Tell him Kayak Jack sent you.

 

[oldsparkey]

I belive this is because the front end sits higher in the water column and offers less water resistance, when pushed side'ways. They probably have a larger wind signature aft, because I sit behind center and my profile is a large signature.

beekeeper

If you are doing like you said and sitting back of the mid line of the boat and raising the bow higher then the stern.... YEP ... It will blow around on you. Darn boats will do it everytime the wind blows. :wink:
Around here when that happens we call it pin wheeling since the boat wants to spin in a circle or at leas till it points down wind like a weather vein.

 

[beekeeper]

The answers sometimes get ahead of my questions. I have already posted my answer, but where do you sit in your boat and why?
I sit (rear of the chair) 18" to 24" behind the center line. Normal conditions it handles best at 24". If the wind kicks up I sit lower and move forward.

beekeeper

 

[oldsparkey]

My spot is over the center line of the boat so the boat is balanced , the bow and stern are at the same height. Sometimes when packed with camping gear I tend to have the bow just a fraction higher then the stern. In weather I tend to offset the angle a little more with the bow being even slightly higher then the stern ( depending on the waves and wind) .
It gets a little complicated on when or why since it is just something I have found which works good for me. About the same as when paddling , I like to paddle on one side and not switch sides all the time. Guess the best way to say it ... it is what is comfortable for me and the way I was taught and have done it for most of my life time. You do something for more then 50 years ( a lot more ) it becomes 2nd nature.

 

[JEM]

Take a look at greenland sea kayak designs (the hard-core sea kayaks, not hybrid). The decks barely sit above the water. The bows are not much more than small up-turned peaks to help with waves. Very low wind signature.

 

[a Bald Cypress]

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A HIJACK

There has been a great deal of discussion in this thread, most of it very interesting and worthwhile. Graphite vs sanded graphite, semi round vs hard chined, long vs short boats, narrow vs wider ones. Much stuff to read and conger about. So first a couple of observations and statements. Both of which are worth just what you paid for them.

Boats; What works for one may not be the ultimate boat for another because of the use the boat is put to. Going uo and down rivers is not the same as going across a calm lake. Carrying everything possible vs minimal gear may require a different boat. Fighting wind and waves makes each boat react differently. The paddlers style affects the end result.

I guess what I am trying to say is, it's all good. Each of us buys builds and uses what WE have found works best for our paddeling pleasure.

And speaking of paddles, [nice segway there dontcha think] I just got off the annual Sabine River trip.28 miles two + days.

While on this trip, I took my 16 ft solo canoe and four different paddles. As has been stated, LOCATION is paramount in what works. That reflects in paddles as well as boats. I had one of each otter tail, beavertail and straight shaft flat bottom blade plus a + or - 12 degree bent shaft with a flat bottom. All of the paddles have right around 120 + or_ surface area.

Because of the water depth the otter and beaver tails were not useable it required a stroke that was to far out from the boat and created a turning effect rather than a propulsion effect. [ LOCATION and CURCUMSTANCE] .

The two square bottomed paddles were the needed equipment. Of the two after using both I have decided FOR ME that the bent shaft provides more power per stroke with the same amount of energy output and therefore, I will continue to use it. The otter and beaver use less energy and may be the paddle of choice on a different location since they require less energy per stroke, in water deep enough to use them.

So there you have my contrubation to this fine discussion. [spelling and gramer mistakes should be ignored]